First, thanks to Shawn for his response to my
frustration over the Khitans.  I guess it's just hard
for me to grasp that the Khitans could be so dense as
to repeatedly ignore Tang's broken promises and not
switch sides, or at least start thinking independently
about their future.

Now I know this was discussed on this list before, so
apologize in advance for bringing it up again, but --
are their books on the history of this region that
anyone here can recommend for the casual reader?
We've watched a few of these historicals now and I'd
like to get an overview to help put them in context.
We've been watching the dvd series of Jumong, which I
understand from the accompanying materials is based at
least in part on myth, so I'd be looking for something
that incorporates the earliest times as well.

Thanks, as always --
Anne
--- webcolorchart <webcolorchart@...> wrote:

> I'm not sure whether I understood your question
> well,but anyway...
>
> Perhaps "The enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine"
> could summarize
> the situation neatly. The wily or smart King Munmoo
> of Shilla, in
> alliance with Tang, had disposed of its two old (all
> but 700 hundred
> years) neighbours, Koguryo and Baekje, and it was
> truely a
> monumental footstep toward the security and
> prosperity of Shilla.
>
> However Tang's intention of laying noose around
> Shilla and ruling
> the whole Korea including Shilla as well as Koguryo
> and Baekje
> became more and more evident. So Shilla had to ally
> with the people
> of Koguryo and Baekje, for example, by establishing
> a puppet regime
> like "Reborn Koguryo" in its own territory. Maybe
> Shilla might have
> wanted to warn Tang of the end of alliance by
> supporting the puppet
> regime. On Koguryo people's side, they also needed
> the alliance with
> Shilla to oust Tang troops from the central part of
> Koguryo
> territory. Anyway it was Tang troops that gave a
> main thrust on
> Koguryo and was occupying most of the Koguryo
> territory at the time,
> not Shilla troops.
>
> Not until Goong-yeh rised in revolt and established
> "Later Koguryo,"
> was Koguryo  "reborn." Later Koguryo is succeeded by
> Koryo, and due
> to its activity in trade with the Arab, Koryo got to
> be known to the
> world as "Korea."
>
> NB: What's the difference between "Koguryo" and
> "Koryo"? When
> Koguryo was first established in 1st century B.C.E.,
> it was
> called "Koguryo," but about 500 years later on
> (around 5th century
> C.E.), "Koryo" gradually began to replace "Koguryo"
> as the name of
> the country. It means that they decided on
> eliminating "gu"
> from "Koguryo," although we don't know why and
> exactly when they did
> it. So, in the strict sense, it was not "Koguryo"
> but "Koryo" that
> was destroyed by the coalition army of Tang and
> Shilla. But Korean
> historians since at least 850 years ago (and hence
> modern-day TV
> shows) has been addressing this ancient dynasty as
> "Koguryo"  for
> the purpose of tell it from the other dynasty with
> the same name 250
> years or so later. Please be aware that it was not
> Goong-yeh or wang
> Guhn who eliminated "gu" from "Koguryo."
>
> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, shawn williams
> <geesehoward4life@...> wrote:
> >
> > What was up with the whole Kogoryo being reborn,
> but inside
> Shilla? Was this not something that should have been
> honestly
> understood as a problem. Shilla helped destroy
> Kogoryo, I would have
> thought that all of the survivors would have seen to
> it that they
> didn't get caught off-guard by Shilla who helped
> destroy them.
> >
> >   Still lovin the Lime green, Archfiend!
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
> today's economy) at
> Yahoo! Games.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
>
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

1) Last week when everyone was chanting "Long live the emporer!" it
sounded
like they were saying "banzai pehah." I am hearing this correctly? I
thought
"banzai" was Japanese.

The Korean word equivalent to Japanese "banzai(Hurrah)" is "mahn-
seh," and it could be sometimes confusing to English speakers' ears.
And the Japanese equivalent of Korean "peh-hah(Your Majesty)"
is "heika" as far as I know.

2) There seem to be two different ways of saying "you bastard," the
only
rinsult which seems to exist in Korean. When Xui Rengui says it, it
sounds like
"yu-no-me." Exempli gratia, Dae Joyoung!!! Dae Joyoung!!! Yu-no-
me!!! (slams
rice-wine bowl, bats feather-duster). When Huek Sadol says it, it
sounds like
"tae-ga-na-sha-gee." (That's probably way way way off). Do the two
expressions
mean the same thing? Or are they completely different and just
translated the
same?

It could be rewritten as "yu-nom-ee," where "Yu" means "this"
and "nom" "bastard," hence "yu-nom" meaning "This bastard(You
bastard)." Adding "ee" at the end of the word means that "yu-nom" is
the subjective case. Something like "is messing up everything!" must
have been lingering in Xue's throat after he spitted out ""yu-nom-
ee."
Likewise "tae" means "that," and "ga-na-sha-gee" "bastard," but in
this case in blunt Pyongyang (North Korean capital city) dialect. If
I'm not mistaken, Huek Sudol is one of the characters who speak in
North Korean dialect. The meaning is all but the same, but what
makes them different is the dialect: one is S. Korean and the other
N. Korean.

3) They say something that sounds like "Shup-so-so" a lot at the end
of
sentances. Is it a suffix like am-ni-dah? If so, what for?

"Shup-so-so" is spoken toward the upper class by the lower class
(for example court officials say it to the king), isn't it? It's an
extremely respectful form of the suffix used when the lower class
recommends the upper class to do something. "Why don't you...."

4) Is it obligatory to clear one's throat and cough a lot when
speaking
Korean--e.g., Xui Rengui again? Is it a cultural thing or just for
dramatic
effect?

Not obligatory, but upper class people in the past seems to have
liked to clear one's throat and cough when speaking for the purpose
of showing their dignity.

5) "What" sounds like "borah!" But every Korean speaker I ask, says
the word
is "mora-go." Am I just mishearing it? Or is there some reason they
use
"borah" instead.

I find "mora-go" is frequently shortened to "mora" especially in
historical dramas. So I suspect that you misheared "mora(h)"
for "borah" as you did "mahn-seh" for "banzai," that is in
common "m" for "b."

6) If someone could provide a transliteration of "deign to see"
and "your
grace is immeasurable" their grace would be immeasurable.

Translate from English to Korean?
English: "deign to see"
Korean: "Tong-chok-hah-Shup-so-so" (Now here comes the "Shup-so-so" -
  your third question)

English: "your grace is immeasurable"
Korean: "Seong-eun-ee mang-geuk-hahp-nee-dah"

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, jeremy penna <jpenna86@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps some of the Korean speakers in the group would be able to
comment on these.
>
>   1)  Last week when everyone was chanting "Long live the
emporer!" it sounded like they were saying "banzai pehah."  I am
hearing this correctly?  I thought "banzai" was Japanese.
>
>   2)   There seem to be two different ways of saying "you
bastard," the only rinsult which seems to exist in Korean.  When Xui
Rengui says it, it sounds like "yu-no-me." Exempli gratia,  Dae
Joyoung!!! Dae Joyoung!!! Yu-no-me!!!  (slams rice-wine bowl, bats
feather-duster).  When Huek Sadol says it, it sounds like "tae-ga-na-
sha-gee."  (That's probably way way way off).  Do the two
expressions mean the same thing?  Or are they completely different
and just translated the same?
>
>   3)  They say something that sounds like "Shup-so-so" a lot at
the end of sentances.  Is it a suffix like am-ni-dah?  If so, what
for?
>
>   4)  Is it obligatory to clear one's throat and cough a lot when
speaking Korean--e.g., Xui Rengui again?  Is it a cultural thing or
just for dramatic effect?
>
>   5)  "What" sounds like "borah!"  But every Korean speaker I ask,
says the word is "mora-go."  Am I just mishearing it?  Or is there
some reason they use "borah" instead.
>
>   6)  If someone could provide a transliteration of "deign to see"
and "your grace is immeasurable" their grace would be immeasurable.
>
>   Thanks,
>
>   J
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
story.
>  Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Sandra - Chulin's hat that I didn't like looked like a peasant's
hat.  It was simple cloth and kind of looked like a bag inverted on
her head - it covered all of her hair and left her face looking
pointed and small.  The only practical thing about it military-wise
that I could see is that it kept her hair out of her face.  Now she
is in a helmet and strands of her hair come out of her helmet
straight down the sides of her face like Gulsuwabi - much better!

Jane

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra J Fulton"
<medieval_student@...> wrote:
>
> To Janed and others:
> When I was an Ensign in the Navy & chosen to be the first US woman
to undergo early (very early!) potential astronaut training, I went
through the series of "Mark 2 full pressure suit" (A.K.A. space suit)
training sessions.  I assure you the space helmet didn't do my cute
hairdo much good, and the aviation doctors & I joked about it at the
time.  HOWEVER--a hat such as a space and/or combat helmet  isn't
designed for fashion shows.  Throughout history--with only a few
periods like Europe and America in the 18th and 19th centuries,
military head-wear has been practical, to deflect weapons and save
lives.  That's why military helmets today are based on the principle
of the upside-down iron bowl, like the bowl helmets that soldiers
wore at Crecy in 1346--reinvented as the almost identically-shaped
steel bowl helmets of WWI. When the British marched through
Revolutionary American forests in impractical bright red uniforms and
tall hats that looked like plumed bishops' mitres, they got mowed
down by the Green Mountain Boys in brown & green rags.  It's true
that the 18th century officers (at least the few who had some sense)
wore iron protective plate inside their dandified hats, but most
enlisted men couldn't afford it.
>
> I've been just 'way too busy to follow this series and had to
abandon it, so I don't know what headgear replaced Chulin's helmet.
But I sure hope it's designed for combat--not "chic"!
>
> Sandy
>
> -------------
> "Privilege just means 'private law.' That's exactly what it means.
[The privileged just don't] believe the ordinary laws apply. . ."
> --Terry Pratchett, THE TRUTH
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 8/14/2007 7:14:25 AM
> Subject: [WangGuhn] Digest Number 1228
> Emperor Wang Guhn... Korean Historicals
> Posted by: "janed1230" janed1230@...
> Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:52 pm
> I like her armor too, but I'm mostly just happy she's not wearing
> that odd-looking man's hat anymore. It was not very becoming on
her,
> nor did it do justice to her warrior-self. I'm absolutley thrilled
> we're getting into the DJY With Beard Era - it's about time!!
> Jane
>

Thank you for that thorough and fascinating reply.

   J

webcolorchart <webcolorchart@...> wrote:
           1) Last week when everyone was chanting "Long live the emporer!" it
sounded
like they were saying "banzai pehah." I am hearing this correctly? I
thought
"banzai" was Japanese.

The Korean word equivalent to Japanese "banzai(Hurrah)" is "mahn-
seh," and it could be sometimes confusing to English speakers' ears.
And the Japanese equivalent of Korean "peh-hah(Your Majesty)"
is "heika" as far as I know.

2) There seem to be two different ways of saying "you bastard," the
only
rinsult which seems to exist in Korean. When Xui Rengui says it, it
sounds like
"yu-no-me." Exempli gratia, Dae Joyoung!!! Dae Joyoung!!! Yu-no-
me!!! (slams
rice-wine bowl, bats feather-duster). When Huek Sadol says it, it
sounds like
"tae-ga-na-sha-gee." (That's probably way way way off). Do the two
expressions
mean the same thing? Or are they completely different and just
translated the
same?

It could be rewritten as "yu-nom-ee," where "Yu" means "this"
and "nom" "bastard," hence "yu-nom" meaning "This bastard(You
bastard)." Adding "ee" at the end of the word means that "yu-nom" is
the subjective case. Something like "is messing up everything!" must
have been lingering in Xue's throat after he spitted out ""yu-nom-
ee."
Likewise "tae" means "that," and "ga-na-sha-gee" "bastard," but in
this case in blunt Pyongyang (North Korean capital city) dialect. If
I'm not mistaken, Huek Sudol is one of the characters who speak in
North Korean dialect. The meaning is all but the same, but what
makes them different is the dialect: one is S. Korean and the other
N. Korean.

3) They say something that sounds like "Shup-so-so" a lot at the end
of
sentances. Is it a suffix like am-ni-dah? If so, what for?

"Shup-so-so" is spoken toward the upper class by the lower class
(for example court officials say it to the king), isn't it? It's an
extremely respectful form of the suffix used when the lower class
recommends the upper class to do something. "Why don't you...."

4) Is it obligatory to clear one's throat and cough a lot when
speaking
Korean--e.g., Xui Rengui again? Is it a cultural thing or just for
dramatic
effect?

Not obligatory, but upper class people in the past seems to have
liked to clear one's throat and cough when speaking for the purpose
of showing their dignity.

5) "What" sounds like "borah!" But every Korean speaker I ask, says
the word
is "mora-go." Am I just mishearing it? Or is there some reason they
use
"borah" instead.

I find "mora-go" is frequently shortened to "mora" especially in
historical dramas. So I suspect that you misheared "mora(h)"
for "borah" as you did "mahn-seh" for "banzai," that is in
common "m" for "b."

6) If someone could provide a transliteration of "deign to see"
and "your
grace is immeasurable" their grace would be immeasurable.

Translate from English to Korean?
English: "deign to see"
Korean: "Tong-chok-hah-Shup-so-so" (Now here comes the "Shup-so-so" -
your third question)

English: "your grace is immeasurable"
Korean: "Seong-eun-ee mang-geuk-hahp-nee-dah"

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, jeremy penna <jpenna86@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps some of the Korean speakers in the group would be able to
comment on these.
>
> 1) Last week when everyone was chanting "Long live the
emporer!" it sounded like they were saying "banzai pehah." I am
hearing this correctly? I thought "banzai" was Japanese.
>
> 2) There seem to be two different ways of saying "you
bastard," the only rinsult which seems to exist in Korean. When Xui
Rengui says it, it sounds like "yu-no-me." Exempli gratia, Dae
Joyoung!!! Dae Joyoung!!! Yu-no-me!!! (slams rice-wine bowl, bats
feather-duster). When Huek Sadol says it, it sounds like "tae-ga-na-
sha-gee." (That's probably way way way off). Do the two
expressions mean the same thing? Or are they completely different
and just translated the same?
>
> 3) They say something that sounds like "Shup-so-so" a lot at
the end of sentances. Is it a suffix like am-ni-dah? If so, what
for?
>
> 4) Is it obligatory to clear one's throat and cough a lot when
speaking Korean--e.g., Xui Rengui again? Is it a cultural thing or
just for dramatic effect?
>
> 5) "What" sounds like "borah!" But every Korean speaker I ask,
says the word is "mora-go." Am I just mishearing it? Or is there
some reason they use "borah" instead.
>
> 6) If someone could provide a transliteration of "deign to see"
and "your grace is immeasurable" their grace would be immeasurable.
>
> Thanks,
>
> J
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
story.
> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, it is frustrating to watch the Khitans repeat the same thing over and over
and over... then look crazy when it didn't work...

Anne Pedersen <aepedersen@...> wrote:          First, thanks to Shawn for
his response to my
frustration over the Khitans. I guess it's just hard
for me to grasp that the Khitans could be so dense as
to repeatedly ignore Tang's broken promises and not
switch sides, or at least start thinking independently
about their future.

Now I know this was discussed on this list before, so
apologize in advance for bringing it up again, but --
are their books on the history of this region that
anyone here can recommend for the casual reader?
We've watched a few of these historicals now and I'd
like to get an overview to help put them in context.
We've been watching the dvd series of Jumong, which I
understand from the accompanying materials is based at
least in part on myth, so I'd be looking for something
that incorporates the earliest times as well.

Thanks, as always --
Anne
--- webcolorchart <webcolorchart@...> wrote:

> I'm not sure whether I understood your question
> well,but anyway...
>
> Perhaps "The enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine"
> could summarize
> the situation neatly. The wily or smart King Munmoo
> of Shilla, in
> alliance with Tang, had disposed of its two old (all
> but 700 hundred
> years) neighbours, Koguryo and Baekje, and it was
> truely a
> monumental footstep toward the security and
> prosperity of Shilla.
>
> However Tang's intention of laying noose around
> Shilla and ruling
> the whole Korea including Shilla as well as Koguryo
> and Baekje
> became more and more evident. So Shilla had to ally
> with the people
> of Koguryo and Baekje, for example, by establishing
> a puppet regime
> like "Reborn Koguryo" in its own territory. Maybe
> Shilla might have
> wanted to warn Tang of the end of alliance by
> supporting the puppet
> regime. On Koguryo people's side, they also needed
> the alliance with
> Shilla to oust Tang troops from the central part of
> Koguryo
> territory. Anyway it was Tang troops that gave a
> main thrust on
> Koguryo and was occupying most of the Koguryo
> territory at the time,
> not Shilla troops.
>
> Not until Goong-yeh rised in revolt and established
> "Later Koguryo,"
> was Koguryo "reborn." Later Koguryo is succeeded by
> Koryo, and due
> to its activity in trade with the Arab, Koryo got to
> be known to the
> world as "Korea."
>
> NB: What's the difference between "Koguryo" and
> "Koryo"? When
> Koguryo was first established in 1st century B.C.E.,
> it was
> called "Koguryo," but about 500 years later on
> (around 5th century
> C.E.), "Koryo" gradually began to replace "Koguryo"
> as the name of
> the country. It means that they decided on
> eliminating "gu"
> from "Koguryo," although we don't know why and
> exactly when they did
> it. So, in the strict sense, it was not "Koguryo"
> but "Koryo" that
> was destroyed by the coalition army of Tang and
> Shilla. But Korean
> historians since at least 850 years ago (and hence
> modern-day TV
> shows) has been addressing this ancient dynasty as
> "Koguryo" for
> the purpose of tell it from the other dynasty with
> the same name 250
> years or so later. Please be aware that it was not
> Goong-yeh or wang
> Guhn who eliminated "gu" from "Koguryo."
>
> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, shawn williams
> <geesehoward4life@...> wrote:
> >
> > What was up with the whole Kogoryo being reborn,
> but inside
> Shilla? Was this not something that should have been
> honestly
> understood as a problem. Shilla helped destroy
> Kogoryo, I would have
> thought that all of the survivors would have seen to
> it that they
> didn't get caught off-guard by Shilla who helped
> destroy them.
> >
> > Still lovin the Lime green, Archfiend!
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
> today's economy) at
> Yahoo! Games.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
>
>
>

__________________________________________________________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC





---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

some great information webcolorchart.

about the Koguryo ----> Goryo transition
I remember when watching the Wang Ghun series
there was something about Tang referred to them as Goryo
as the origins of the name.
I'm not sure if it came up in the series or reading done while
watching it

Bob

  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "webcolorchart" <webcolorchart@...>
> I'm not sure whether I understood your question well,but anyway...
>
> NB: What's the difference between "Koguryo" and "Koryo"? When
> Koguryo was first established in 1st century B.C.E., it was
> called "Koguryo," but about 500 years later on (around 5th century
> C.E.), "Koryo" gradually began to replace "Koguryo" as the name of
> the country. It means that they decided on eliminating "gu"
> from "Koguryo," although we don't know why and exactly when they did
> it. So, in the strict sense, it was not "Koguryo" but "Koryo" that
> was destroyed by the coalition army of Tang and Shilla. But Korean
> historians since at least 850 years ago (and hence modern-day TV
> shows) has been addressing this ancient dynasty as "Koguryo"  for
> the purpose of tell it from the other dynasty with the same name 250
> years or so later. Please be aware that it was not Goong-yeh or wang
> Guhn who eliminated "gu" from "Koguryo."
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a few of our dear
members have written extensive criticism of DJY characters.  Generally it has
been stated that the characters' behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I
don't mean to single anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to
disagree with much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values with our
western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still largely held in
middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old Kogureo existed in a pre-Confucian
era. Confucianism brought a semblance of our western values to the far east.
(Thou shalt not murder, steal, lie or covet, obey the law, be forgiving, be
kind, esp to your parents, etc.) The entire ancient eastern value system lacks
all that and is based purely on the supreme principle of "Honor & Shame". It
requires all members to uphold honor/pride in self, family and country
  (obey/conquer/succeed) at all costs. Any failure or disobedience brought shame
& you were likely to be executed, often at the hands of family members. The
western value of forgiveness was not valued. Revenge and retribution are an
important part of the practice of the "Honor and Shame" code. Notice how after a
failed mission, the military leaders always beg their superiors to execute them?
Have you noticed how extensive the lamenting over any "humiliation" is?!   Any
insult (except from a superior) was sure to elicit a strong indignant (often
violent) response.  One's duty to uphold family/patriotic honor always takes
precedence over one's personal desires and needs.  Therefore, you see DJY acting
only in the interest of his country, which in those turbulent times, left him
with no opportunity to start a family of his own. I see DJY as a young man
tormented by conflict, heart-wrenchingly torn between the demands of his culture
and his desire for Chulin. He seems to have a
  lot of strength of character to me. He endlessly delays personal gratification
in favor of fulfilling his military obligations, a choice  which could be easily
misinterpreted by westerners as an immature shyness of women.  I think what
makes the love-story of Chulin and DJY so poignant-is that they are caught
between desperate longing for one another and being duty-bound to destroy each
other as enemies.  Also, I really admire the noble Kahn. He was a man of
principle, probably out of a sense of honor but he had a sense of fairness too. 
His reaction was so interesting to me when in shock, he protested against Xui
Rengui breaking his promise, (his "word") to Kogureo.  That instance
demonstrated that the Khitans, regarded as primitive barbarians, actually held
higher ethical principles. Tang lacked similar pangs of conscience at the deceit
and manipulation of Kogureo.  The Kahn also showed mercy and kindness in
allowing DJY to  escape from  Pyong-Yang with the citizens
  immediately after Tang toppled the Kogurean  capital.  Had the decision  been
up to Tang leaders, the fleeing Kogureans would have been ruthlessly imprisoned
and/or slaughtered.  Instead, the Kahn even praised the valor and heroism of DJY
and his warriors, as he released them.  I would imagine Tang never learned of
the Kahn's decision to release the citizens, or there would have been serious
consequences for the Khitans. Please, if anyone has a response or question on my
comments, I would enjoy hearing from you. Thanks again.
-Best wishes to all, The Kogureo Queen (formerly the Korea Queen!)


---------------------------------
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tool.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

O_o uhhh, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Caroline <carolinekor@...> wrote:          Thanks for the commentary,
which is very interesting. Quite a few of our dear members have written
extensive criticism of DJY characters. Generally it has been stated that the
characters' behavior seems odd, immature, even silly. I don't mean to single
anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to disagree with much of the
criticism, my friends. I think a serious misunderstanding comes from our
regarding ancient eastern values with our western world-view. (Ancient eastern
values are still largely held in middle-eastern countries to this day.) Old
Kogureo existed in a pre-Confucian era. Confucianism brought a semblance of our
western values to the far east. (Thou shalt not murder, steal, lie or covet,
obey the law, be forgiving, be kind, esp to your parents, etc.) The entire
ancient eastern value system lacks all that and is based purely on the supreme
principle of "Honor & Shame". It requires all members to uphold
  honor/pride in self, family and country
(obey/conquer/succeed) at all costs. Any failure or disobedience brought shame &
you were likely to be executed, often at the hands of family members. The
western value of forgiveness was not valued. Revenge and retribution are an
important part of the practice of the "Honor and Shame" code. Notice how after a
failed mission, the military leaders always beg their superiors to execute them?
Have you noticed how extensive the lamenting over any "humiliation" is?! Any
insult (except from a superior) was sure to elicit a strong indignant (often
violent) response. One's duty to uphold family/patriotic honor always takes
precedence over one's personal desires and needs. Therefore, you see DJY acting
only in the interest of his country, which in those turbulent times, left him
with no opportunity to start a family of his own. I see DJY as a young man
tormented by conflict, heart-wrenchingly torn between the demands of his culture
and his desire for Chulin. He seems to have a
lot of strength of character to me. He endlessly delays personal gratification
in favor of fulfilling his military obligations, a choice which could be easily
misinterpreted by westerners as an immature shyness of women. I think what makes
the love-story of Chulin and DJY so poignant-is that they are caught between
desperate longing for one another and being duty-bound to destroy each other as
enemies. Also, I really admire the noble Kahn. He was a man of principle,
probably out of a sense of honor but he had a sense of fairness too. His
reaction was so interesting to me when in shock, he protested against Xui Rengui
breaking his promise, (his "word") to Kogureo. That instance demonstrated that
the Khitans, regarded as primitive barbarians, actually held higher ethical
principles. Tang lacked similar pangs of conscience at the deceit and
manipulation of Kogureo. The Kahn also showed mercy and kindness in allowing DJY
to escape from Pyong-Yang with the citizens
immediately after Tang toppled the Kogurean capital. Had the decision been up to
Tang leaders, the fleeing Kogureans would have been ruthlessly imprisoned and/or
slaughtered. Instead, the Kahn even praised the valor and heroism of DJY and his
warriors, as he released them. I would imagine Tang never learned of the Kahn's
decision to release the citizens, or there would have been serious consequences
for the Khitans. Please, if anyone has a response or question on my comments, I
would enjoy hearing from you. Thanks again.
-Best wishes to all, The Kogureo Queen (formerly the Korea Queen!)

---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder
tool.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Great comments Caroline, and you may be very accurate.
However the way I see it; we are being presented with activities and actions
that
are at best embellished and at worst purely fictional.

Many characters are invented for these dramas to fit into a compelling story

And don't forget the examples you show of events during the series are a
product of the script writer and not likely a true reflection of what actually
happened.
I'm not talking about the major events, but the little details of what and how
people acted.

People throughout the world have and will always have diverse sets of values.
However we can not make the common mistake of historical hind site
and attribute what we think their mindset was - instead remember that
modern humans were no less sophisticated several thousand years ago as
they are today. Just read works from antiquity and it is plain they thought
exactly
as we do today.

Needless to say, I am enjoying DJY immensely and wait just as eagerly for
Thursday
and Friday nights as I've ever been.

Bob

--
Your future is cold, distant and bleak.
The present exists only in your mind...

What They Don't Want You To Know:
http://www.myspace.com/mindcontroltower

  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Caroline <carolinekor@...>
> Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a few of our dear
> members have written extensive criticism of DJY characters.  Generally it has
> been stated that the characters' behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I
> don't mean to single anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to
> disagree with much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
> misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values with our
> western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still largely held in
> middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old Kogureo existed in a pre-Confucian
> era. Confucianism brought a semblance of our western values to the far east.
> (Thou shalt not murder, steal, lie or covet, obey the law, be forgiving, be
> kind, esp to your parents, etc.) The entire ancient eastern value system lacks
> all that and is based purely on the supreme principle of "Honor & Shame". It
> requires all members to uphold honor/pride in self, family and country
>  (obey/conquer/succeed) at all costs. Any failure or disobedience brought
shame
> & you were likely to be executed, often at the hands of family members. The
> western value of forgiveness was not valued. Revenge and retribution are an
> important part of the practice of the "Honor and Shame" code. Notice how after
a
> failed mission, the military leaders always beg their superiors to execute
them?
> Have you noticed how extensive the lamenting over any "humiliation" is?!   Any
> insult (except from a superior) was sure to elicit a strong indignant (often
> violent) response.  One's duty to uphold family/patriotic honor always takes
> precedence over one's personal desires and needs.  Therefore, you see DJY
acting
> only in the interest of his country, which in those turbulent times, left him
> with no opportunity to start a family of his own. I see DJY as a young man
> tormented by conflict, heart-wrenchingly torn between the demands of his
culture
> and his desire for Chulin. He seems to have a
>  lot of strength of character to me. He endlessly delays personal
gratification
> in favor of fulfilling his military obligations, a choice  which could be
easily
> misinterpreted by westerners as an immature shyness of women.  I think what
> makes the love-story of Chulin and DJY so poignant-is that they are caught
> between desperate longing for one another and being duty-bound to destroy each
> other as enemies.  Also, I really admire the noble Kahn. He was a man of
> principle, probably out of a sense of honor but he had a sense of fairness
too.
> His reaction was so interesting to me when in shock, he protested against Xui
> Rengui breaking his promise, (his "word") to Kogureo.  That instance
> demonstrated that the Khitans, regarded as primitive barbarians, actually held
> higher ethical principles. Tang lacked similar pangs of conscience at the
deceit
> and manipulation of Kogureo.  The Kahn also showed mercy and kindness in
> allowing DJY to  escape from  Pyong-Yang with the citizens
>  immediately after Tang toppled the Kogurean  capital.  Had the decision  been
> up to Tang leaders, the fleeing Kogureans would have been ruthlessly
imprisoned
> and/or slaughtered.  Instead, the Kahn even praised the valor and heroism of
DJY
> and his warriors, as he released them.  I would imagine Tang never learned of
> the Kahn's decision to release the citizens, or there would have been serious
> consequences for the Khitans. Please, if anyone has a response or question on
my
> comments, I would enjoy hearing from you. Thanks again.
> -Best wishes to all, The Kogureo Queen (formerly the Korea Queen!)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder
> tool.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caroline wrote:
> Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a few of our dear
members have written extensive criticism of DJY characters.  Generally it has
been stated that the characters' behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I
don't mean to single anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to
disagree with much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values with our
western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still largely held in
middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old Kogureo existed in a pre-Confucian
era.
[snip]

I question the above contention,
Caroline -- if I read my history
correctly, Confucianism was the
dominant philosophical viewpoint
in the region during the DJY
period.  Although the Tang regime
made a point of deemphasizing it
as much as possible, I doubt such
an effort had much of an impact
on the Korean peninsula.  My main
point here is that DJY is set
well over a thousand years after
Confucius died, so imo it's not
very credible to call that period
"a pre-Confucian era."

dear carolinekor or Korean queen, ahem...it's my assumption that JoYoung and
Chulin are running behind the bushes every chance they get and the producers
of DJY just aren't filming that part.  I don't care what culture you are from
or what year it was, boys will be boys and girls will be girls and sometimes
boys will be girls and girls will be boys, whatever...the point being the thing
people do best is to create more little warriors to defend their countries, we
are very good at that!!



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, you're right, Bruce. Confucianism had been known and accepted
by the Koguryo society long before the 7th century. But Confucianism
does not seem to have prevailed as compared to Buddhism. So Koguryo
people were more Buddhist than Confucian, I think. They also
worshipped their own Gods.
(In 371, Koguryo king Soh-Soo-Rim imported Buddhism from the Tibets,
and himself became a Buddhist. He also founded the National
Confucian Academy.)
In my humble opinion (I'm neither a historian nor a native speaker
of English), if a period when Buddhism doesn't prevail yet can be
meant by "pre-Confucian era" as well as a period when Confucianism
is not even known or imported, Koguryo of the 7th century could be
said to have neen in "pre-Confucian era". However, in general
Koguryo was not in "pre-Confucian era" in the 7th century.

Modern-day Koreans are descendants of the most fundamental
Confucianists of Chosun Dynasty, so even the writer of this drama
set in the period when Confucianism didn't prevail tends to make the
characters look more Confucian than he/she expected without
intention, I think. If the character of Dae Jo-Young frequently
reminds you of "very Confucian" Yi Soon-Shin, it's unrealistic.

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
>
> Caroline wrote:
> > Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a
few of our dear members have written extensive criticism of DJY
characters.  Generally it has been stated that the characters'
behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I don't mean to single
anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to disagree with
much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values
with our western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still
largely held in middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old Kogureo
existed in a pre-Confucian era.
> [snip]
>
> I question the above contention,
> Caroline -- if I read my history
> correctly, Confucianism was the
> dominant philosophical viewpoint
> in the region during the DJY
> period.  Although the Tang regime
> made a point of deemphasizing it
> as much as possible, I doubt such
> an effort had much of an impact
> on the Korean peninsula.  My main
> point here is that DJY is set
> well over a thousand years after
> Confucius died, so imo it's not
> very credible to call that period
> "a pre-Confucian era."
>

Well, I've never been anywhere
in east Asia and don't speak
any of the languages from that
region -- and your written
English is truly excellent!

I've always seen Confucianism
as more of a philosophical
system than a religion.
Buddhism is quite another
matter -- although the Buddha
himself never referred to any
god or gods, many of the sects
that call themselves Buddhist
seem to worship the Buddha as
a diety and follow devotional
practices that aren't in any
of the Sutras.  It seems to me
that Confucian ideas permeate
east Asian societies in the
way folks deal with each other
socially and in familial,
political, and business
relationships, while Buddhism
exists in more of purely
spiritual or religious realm
beyond mere human morality and
ethics -- this separation of
bailiwicks seems to allow
nominally Buddhist clergy to
act quite amorally as advisers
to ruthlessly ambitious
politicians and generals.


webcolorchart wrote:
> Yes, you're right, Bruce. Confucianism had been known and accepted
> by the Koguryo society long before the 7th century. But Confucianism
> does not seem to have prevailed as compared to Buddhism. So Koguryo
> people were more Buddhist than Confucian, I think. They also
> worshipped their own Gods.
> (In 371, Koguryo king Soh-Soo-Rim imported Buddhism from the Tibets,
> and himself became a Buddhist. He also founded the National
> Confucian Academy.)
> In my humble opinion (I'm neither a historian nor a native speaker
> of English), if a period when Buddhism doesn't prevail yet can be
> meant by "pre-Confucian era" as well as a period when Confucianism
> is not even known or imported, Koguryo of the 7th century could be
> said to have neen in "pre-Confucian era". However, in general
> Koguryo was not in "pre-Confucian era" in the 7th century.
>
> Modern-day Koreans are descendants of the most fundamental
> Confucianists of Chosun Dynasty, so even the writer of this drama
> set in the period when Confucianism didn't prevail tends to make the
> characters look more Confucian than he/she expected without
> intention, I think. If the character of Dae Jo-Young frequently
> reminds you of "very Confucian" Yi Soon-Shin, it's unrealistic.
>
> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
>
>> Caroline wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a
>>>
> few of our dear members have written extensive criticism of DJY
> characters.  Generally it has been stated that the characters'
> behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I don't mean to single
> anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to disagree with
> much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
> misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values
> with our western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still
> largely held in middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old Kogureo
> existed in a pre-Confucian era.
>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I question the above contention,
>> Caroline -- if I read my history
>> correctly, Confucianism was the
>> dominant philosophical viewpoint
>> in the region during the DJY
>> period.  Although the Tang regime
>> made a point of deemphasizing it
>> as much as possible, I doubt such
>> an effort had much of an impact
>> on the Korean peninsula.  My main
>> point here is that DJY is set
>> well over a thousand years after
>> Confucius died, so imo it's not
>> very credible to call that period
>> "a pre-Confucian era."
>>

Hi Fry
I think you might be right

tonight we saw that typical K-drama hint of Chulin's pregnancy
nausea from eating?

I think not

You might be right about the bouncy bouncy stuff


bob

--
Your future is cold, distant and bleak.
The present exists only in your mind...

What They Don't Want You To Know:
http://www.myspace.com/mindcontroltower

  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: fryanegg@...
> dear carolinekor or Korean queen, ahem...it's my assumption that JoYoung and
> Chulin are running behind the bushes every chance they get and the producers
> of DJY just aren't filming that part.  I don't care what culture you are from
> or what year it was, boys will be boys and girls will be girls and sometimes
> boys will be girls and girls will be boys, whatever...the point being the
thing
> people do best is to create more little warriors to defend their countries, we
> are very good at that!!
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think your understanding of Confucianism is valid. Confucianism
could be said to be firmly based on common sense, not on anything
supernatural, although what they think common sense is frequently
suggested as a form of "the will of Heaven".

Question: What do you think about death?

(1)religious answer: After death you will be in Heaven, or you will
be reincarnated.
(2)Marxist answer: Death is just an utterly physical process.
(3)Confucian answer (common sense): I don't know about it.

PS: I've never been anywhere in English speaking world too. When it
comes to written English, at least I can communicate with English
speakers although incomplete, but as for spoken English, I always
need the additional help of a pen and a paper to communicate with
them.

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I've never been anywhere
> in east Asia and don't speak
> any of the languages from that
> region -- and your written
> English is truly excellent!
>
> I've always seen Confucianism
> as more of a philosophical
> system than a religion.
> Buddhism is quite another
> matter -- although the Buddha
> himself never referred to any
> god or gods, many of the sects
> that call themselves Buddhist
> seem to worship the Buddha as
> a diety and follow devotional
> practices that aren't in any
> of the Sutras.  It seems to me
> that Confucian ideas permeate
> east Asian societies in the
> way folks deal with each other
> socially and in familial,
> political, and business
> relationships, while Buddhism
> exists in more of purely
> spiritual or religious realm
> beyond mere human morality and
> ethics -- this separation of
> bailiwicks seems to allow
> nominally Buddhist clergy to
> act quite amorally as advisers
> to ruthlessly ambitious
> politicians and generals.
>
>
> webcolorchart wrote:
> > Yes, you're right, Bruce. Confucianism had been known and
accepted
> > by the Koguryo society long before the 7th century. But
Confucianism
> > does not seem to have prevailed as compared to Buddhism. So
Koguryo
> > people were more Buddhist than Confucian, I think. They also
> > worshipped their own Gods.
> > (In 371, Koguryo king Soh-Soo-Rim imported Buddhism from the
Tibets,
> > and himself became a Buddhist. He also founded the National
> > Confucian Academy.)
> > In my humble opinion (I'm neither a historian nor a native
speaker
> > of English), if a period when Buddhism doesn't prevail yet can
be
> > meant by "pre-Confucian era" as well as a period when
Confucianism
> > is not even known or imported, Koguryo of the 7th century could
be
> > said to have neen in "pre-Confucian era". However, in general
> > Koguryo was not in "pre-Confucian era" in the 7th century.
> >
> > Modern-day Koreans are descendants of the most fundamental
> > Confucianists of Chosun Dynasty, so even the writer of this
drama
> > set in the period when Confucianism didn't prevail tends to make
the
> > characters look more Confucian than he/she expected without
> > intention, I think. If the character of Dae Jo-Young frequently
> > reminds you of "very Confucian" Yi Soon-Shin, it's unrealistic.
> >
> > --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@> wrote:
> >
> >> Caroline wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a
> >>>
> > few of our dear members have written extensive criticism of DJY
> > characters.  Generally it has been stated that the characters'
> > behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I don't mean to
single
> > anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to disagree
with
> > much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
> > misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values
> > with our western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still
> > largely held in middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old
Kogureo
> > existed in a pre-Confucian era.
> >
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I question the above contention,
> >> Caroline -- if I read my history
> >> correctly, Confucianism was the
> >> dominant philosophical viewpoint
> >> in the region during the DJY
> >> period.  Although the Tang regime
> >> made a point of deemphasizing it
> >> as much as possible, I doubt such
> >> an effort had much of an impact
> >> on the Korean peninsula.  My main
> >> point here is that DJY is set
> >> well over a thousand years after
> >> Confucius died, so imo it's not
> >> very credible to call that period
> >> "a pre-Confucian era."
> >>
>

Thanks for your comments and
the very clear example of the
"death" question -- you are
truly a great asset to this
group, and I very much
appreciate your participation!


webcolorchart wrote:
> I think your understanding of Confucianism is valid. Confucianism
> could be said to be firmly based on common sense, not on anything
> supernatural, although what they think common sense is frequently
> suggested as a form of "the will of Heaven".
>
> Question: What do you think about death?
>
> (1)religious answer: After death you will be in Heaven, or you will
> be reincarnated.
> (2)Marxist answer: Death is just an utterly physical process.
> (3)Confucian answer (common sense): I don't know about it.
>
> PS: I've never been anywhere in English speaking world too. When it
> comes to written English, at least I can communicate with English
> speakers although incomplete, but as for spoken English, I always
> need the additional help of a pen and a paper to communicate with
> them.
>
> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
>
>> Well, I've never been anywhere
>> in east Asia and don't speak
>> any of the languages from that
>> region -- and your written
>> English is truly excellent!
>>
>> I've always seen Confucianism
>> as more of a philosophical
>> system than a religion.
>> Buddhism is quite another
>> matter -- although the Buddha
>> himself never referred to any
>> god or gods, many of the sects
>> that call themselves Buddhist
>> seem to worship the Buddha as
>> a diety and follow devotional
>> practices that aren't in any
>> of the Sutras.  It seems to me
>> that Confucian ideas permeate
>> east Asian societies in the
>> way folks deal with each other
>> socially and in familial,
>> political, and business
>> relationships, while Buddhism
>> exists in more of purely
>> spiritual or religious realm
>> beyond mere human morality and
>> ethics -- this separation of
>> bailiwicks seems to allow
>> nominally Buddhist clergy to
>> act quite amorally as advisers
>> to ruthlessly ambitious
>> politicians and generals.
>>
>>
>> webcolorchart wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, you're right, Bruce. Confucianism had been known and
>>>
> accepted
>
>>> by the Koguryo society long before the 7th century. But
>>>
> Confucianism
>
>>> does not seem to have prevailed as compared to Buddhism. So
>>>
> Koguryo
>
>>> people were more Buddhist than Confucian, I think. They also
>>> worshipped their own Gods.
>>> (In 371, Koguryo king Soh-Soo-Rim imported Buddhism from the
>>>
> Tibets,
>
>>> and himself became a Buddhist. He also founded the National
>>> Confucian Academy.)
>>> In my humble opinion (I'm neither a historian nor a native
>>>
> speaker
>
>>> of English), if a period when Buddhism doesn't prevail yet can
>>>
> be
>
>>> meant by "pre-Confucian era" as well as a period when
>>>
> Confucianism
>
>>> is not even known or imported, Koguryo of the 7th century could
>>>
> be
>
>>> said to have neen in "pre-Confucian era". However, in general
>>> Koguryo was not in "pre-Confucian era" in the 7th century.
>>>
>>> Modern-day Koreans are descendants of the most fundamental
>>> Confucianists of Chosun Dynasty, so even the writer of this
>>>
> drama
>
>>> set in the period when Confucianism didn't prevail tends to make
>>>
> the
>
>>> characters look more Confucian than he/she expected without
>>> intention, I think. If the character of Dae Jo-Young frequently
>>> reminds you of "very Confucian" Yi Soon-Shin, it's unrealistic.
>>>
>>> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Caroline wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> few of our dear members have written extensive criticism of DJY
>>> characters.  Generally it has been stated that the characters'
>>> behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I don't mean to
>>>
> single
>
>>> anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to disagree
>>>
> with
>
>>> much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
>>> misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern values
>>> with our western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are still
>>> largely held in middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old
>>>
> Kogureo
>
>>> existed in a pre-Confucian era.
>>>
>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I question the above contention,
>>>> Caroline -- if I read my history
>>>> correctly, Confucianism was the
>>>> dominant philosophical viewpoint
>>>> in the region during the DJY
>>>> period.  Although the Tang regime
>>>> made a point of deemphasizing it
>>>> as much as possible, I doubt such
>>>> an effort had much of an impact
>>>> on the Korean peninsula.  My main
>>>> point here is that DJY is set
>>>> well over a thousand years after
>>>> Confucius died, so imo it's not
>>>> very credible to call that period
>>>> "a pre-Confucian era."
>>>>

You're welcome. It's my pleasure.
--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your comments and
> the very clear example of the
> "death" question -- you are
> truly a great asset to this
> group, and I very much
> appreciate your participation!
>
>
> webcolorchart wrote:
> > I think your understanding of Confucianism is valid.
Confucianism
> > could be said to be firmly based on common sense, not on
anything
> > supernatural, although what they think common sense is
frequently
> > suggested as a form of "the will of Heaven".
> >
> > Question: What do you think about death?
> >
> > (1)religious answer: After death you will be in Heaven, or you
will
> > be reincarnated.
> > (2)Marxist answer: Death is just an utterly physical process.
> > (3)Confucian answer (common sense): I don't know about it.
> >
> > PS: I've never been anywhere in English speaking world too. When
it
> > comes to written English, at least I can communicate with
English
> > speakers although incomplete, but as for spoken English, I
always
> > need the additional help of a pen and a paper to communicate
with
> > them.
> >
> > --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, I've never been anywhere
> >> in east Asia and don't speak
> >> any of the languages from that
> >> region -- and your written
> >> English is truly excellent!
> >>
> >> I've always seen Confucianism
> >> as more of a philosophical
> >> system than a religion.
> >> Buddhism is quite another
> >> matter -- although the Buddha
> >> himself never referred to any
> >> god or gods, many of the sects
> >> that call themselves Buddhist
> >> seem to worship the Buddha as
> >> a diety and follow devotional
> >> practices that aren't in any
> >> of the Sutras.  It seems to me
> >> that Confucian ideas permeate
> >> east Asian societies in the
> >> way folks deal with each other
> >> socially and in familial,
> >> political, and business
> >> relationships, while Buddhism
> >> exists in more of purely
> >> spiritual or religious realm
> >> beyond mere human morality and
> >> ethics -- this separation of
> >> bailiwicks seems to allow
> >> nominally Buddhist clergy to
> >> act quite amorally as advisers
> >> to ruthlessly ambitious
> >> politicians and generals.
> >>
> >>
> >> webcolorchart wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, you're right, Bruce. Confucianism had been known and
> >>>
> > accepted
> >
> >>> by the Koguryo society long before the 7th century. But
> >>>
> > Confucianism
> >
> >>> does not seem to have prevailed as compared to Buddhism. So
> >>>
> > Koguryo
> >
> >>> people were more Buddhist than Confucian, I think. They also
> >>> worshipped their own Gods.
> >>> (In 371, Koguryo king Soh-Soo-Rim imported Buddhism from the
> >>>
> > Tibets,
> >
> >>> and himself became a Buddhist. He also founded the National
> >>> Confucian Academy.)
> >>> In my humble opinion (I'm neither a historian nor a native
> >>>
> > speaker
> >
> >>> of English), if a period when Buddhism doesn't prevail yet can
> >>>
> > be
> >
> >>> meant by "pre-Confucian era" as well as a period when
> >>>
> > Confucianism
> >
> >>> is not even known or imported, Koguryo of the 7th century
could
> >>>
> > be
> >
> >>> said to have neen in "pre-Confucian era". However, in general
> >>> Koguryo was not in "pre-Confucian era" in the 7th century.
> >>>
> >>> Modern-day Koreans are descendants of the most fundamental
> >>> Confucianists of Chosun Dynasty, so even the writer of this
> >>>
> > drama
> >
> >>> set in the period when Confucianism didn't prevail tends to
make
> >>>
> > the
> >
> >>> characters look more Confucian than he/she expected without
> >>> intention, I think. If the character of Dae Jo-Young
frequently
> >>> reminds you of "very Confucian" Yi Soon-Shin, it's unrealistic.
> >>>
> >>> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Caroline wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the commentary, which is very interesting.  Quite
a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> few of our dear members have written extensive criticism of
DJY
> >>> characters.  Generally it has been stated that the characters'
> >>> behavior seems odd, immature, even silly.  I don't mean to
> >>>
> > single
> >
> >>> anyone out in particular, but I respectfully have to disagree
> >>>
> > with
> >
> >>> much of the criticism, my friends.  I think a serious
> >>> misunderstanding comes from our regarding ancient eastern
values
> >>> with our western world-view.  (Ancient eastern values are
still
> >>> largely held in middle-eastern countries to this day.)  Old
> >>>
> > Kogureo
> >
> >>> existed in a pre-Confucian era.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>
> >>>> I question the above contention,
> >>>> Caroline -- if I read my history
> >>>> correctly, Confucianism was the
> >>>> dominant philosophical viewpoint
> >>>> in the region during the DJY
> >>>> period.  Although the Tang regime
> >>>> made a point of deemphasizing it
> >>>> as much as possible, I doubt such
> >>>> an effort had much of an impact
> >>>> on the Korean peninsula.  My main
> >>>> point here is that DJY is set
> >>>> well over a thousand years after
> >>>> Confucius died, so imo it's not
> >>>> very credible to call that period
> >>>> "a pre-Confucian era."
> >>>>
>

Thanks to KoreanWiz News Pages

8-22-07
Kim Myung Min (Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
Read about how he becomes his character,
in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536


More about actor Kim Myung-Min
www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html

Thanks to the KoreanWiz News Pages
www.koreanwiz.org

Kim Myung-Min
(White Tower/Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
Read about how he becomes his character,
in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536


More about Kim Myung-Min here
www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html

I thought he was phenomenal in White Tower.  Really something.

Erica

On 8/22/07, betz3424 <betz.mc@...> wrote:
>
>   Thanks to KoreanWiz News Pages
>
> 8-22-07
> Kim Myung Min (Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
> is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
> Read about how he becomes his character,
> in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
> joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536
>
> More about actor Kim Myung-Min
> www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html
>
>
>



--
Erica
Read me at: http://allaboutericablog.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't see White Tower, but your words also describe his
performance as YSS.  I'd also add convincing - he's extremely
talented.  When he collapsed in the scene where he was shot the first
time, I reached for the phone to call 9-1-1.

Jane


--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Erica <erica.entwistle@...> wrote:
>
> I thought he was phenomenal in White Tower.  Really something.
>
> Erica
>
> On 8/22/07, betz3424 <betz.mc@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Thanks to KoreanWiz News Pages
> >
> > 8-22-07
> > Kim Myung Min (Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
> > is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
> > Read about how he becomes his character,
> > in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
> > joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536
> >
> > More about actor Kim Myung-Min
> > www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erica
> Read me at: http://allaboutericablog.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Okay, I know I'm asking LATE! But I'm still asking here people!?!? I need the
actual names of some actors and actresses and I'm getting zippo, zilch, ZERO!
Trying it through normal channels! I'm looking for the name of the actresses
that played Suin in EWG and the actress who played Madam Bukwon in EWG, I'm also
looking for the name of the actress who played Madam Bu-young in AOW (Archfiends
second wife) and the name of Mrs. Archfiend (his first wife) who is never
actually named. Along with these ladies I am looking for the name of the actor
who plays Gulsabiwu in DJY!

   A little help here... anybody... somebody... roger me, willco me, hello-hello
PEOPLE!

   Ahem...

   In other news, I have reached mid-point of Chapter 8 for Lady Yoma. I have
finally named all of Song-Yune's Imperial Guardsmen, and I have finally given
General Choi a first name, besides... General Choi. My search for a book of
Korean names and their meanings has proven useless, however! Laserbeak has
reported that the Borders books in Center City may have what I need... I would
dispatch Starscream to retrieve it, but his bumbling ineptitude could prove
fatal in this matter... FOR HIM! Either way, I am still fleshing out all of the
unique powers of each guardsman, but I will post the names here eventually just
to see if my hours and hours of film study of these historical drama's has
yielded anything other than Blackman's Korean jibba-jabber of NAMES!

   And that's just wrong! -_-

   I finally settled on General Choi's full name, still mapping out counties and
such as far as this earth's Koryo, so I haven't given him an actual area that he
comes from. I'm kinda behind the eight ball on my world map... which is
uncharacteristic of me. Either way, General Choi's full name is Choi Suh-Pil, it
was a toss up of either Suh-Pil or Sun-Gil, I went with Suh-Pil, but haven't the
faintest of what his name actually means!?!? Webcolorchart, if you can make
sense of what I've just put together, as far as the meaning of his name, it
would be greatly appreciated. Okay, then, I have taken up enough of your
valuable time... that is all...



janed1230 <janed1230@...> wrote:
           I didn't see White Tower, but your words also describe his
performance as YSS. I'd also add convincing - he's extremely
talented. When he collapsed in the scene where he was shot the first
time, I reached for the phone to call 9-1-1.

Jane

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Erica <erica.entwistle@...> wrote:
>
> I thought he was phenomenal in White Tower. Really something.
>
> Erica
>
> On 8/22/07, betz3424 <betz.mc@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to KoreanWiz News Pages
> >
> > 8-22-07
> > Kim Myung Min (Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
> > is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
> > Read about how he becomes his character,
> > in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
> > joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536
> >
> > More about actor Kim Myung-Min
> > www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erica
> Read me at: http://allaboutericablog.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Soory. I forgot to answer your previous post.

Suin in EWG: Chun Mee-Sun
Madam Bukwon in EWG: cannot find any info about the actress
Madam Bu-young in AOW (Archfiends second wife): Im Kyung-Ok
Mrs. Archfiend (his first wife): Chung Sun-Kyung
Gulsabiwu in DJY : Choi Chul-Ho

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, shawn williams
<geesehoward4life@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, I know I'm asking LATE! But I'm still asking here people!?!?
I need the actual names of some actors and actresses and I'm getting
zippo, zilch, ZERO! Trying it through normal channels! I'm looking
for the name of the actresses that played Suin in EWG and the
actress who played Madam Bukwon in EWG, I'm also looking for the
name of the actress who played Madam Bu-young in AOW (Archfiends
second wife) and the name of Mrs. Archfiend (his first wife) who is
never actually named. Along with these ladies I am looking for the
name of the actor who plays Gulsabiwu in DJY!
>
>   A little help here... anybody... somebody... roger me, willco
me, hello-hello PEOPLE!
>
>   Ahem...
>
>   In other news, I have reached mid-point of Chapter 8 for Lady
Yoma. I have finally named all of Song-Yune's Imperial Guardsmen,
and I have finally given General Choi a first name, besides...
General Choi. My search for a book of Korean names and their
meanings has proven useless, however! Laserbeak has reported that
the Borders books in Center City may have what I need... I would
dispatch Starscream to retrieve it, but his bumbling ineptitude
could prove fatal in this matter... FOR HIM! Either way, I am still
fleshing out all of the unique powers of each guardsman, but I will
post the names here eventually just to see if my hours and hours of
film study of these historical drama's has yielded anything other
than Blackman's Korean jibba-jabber of NAMES!
>
>   And that's just wrong! -_-
>
>   I finally settled on General Choi's full name, still mapping out
counties and such as far as this earth's Koryo, so I haven't given
him an actual area that he comes from. I'm kinda behind the eight
ball on my world map... which is uncharacteristic of me. Either way,
General Choi's full name is Choi Suh-Pil, it was a toss up of either
Suh-Pil or Sun-Gil, I went with Suh-Pil, but haven't the faintest of
what his name actually means!?!? Webcolorchart, if you can make
sense of what I've just put together, as far as the meaning of his
name, it would be greatly appreciated. Okay, then, I have taken up
enough of your valuable time... that is all...
>
>
>
> janed1230 <janed1230@...> wrote:
>           I didn't see White Tower, but your words also describe
his
> performance as YSS. I'd also add convincing - he's extremely
> talented. When he collapsed in the scene where he was shot the
first
> time, I reached for the phone to call 9-1-1.
>
> Jane
>
> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Erica <erica.entwistle@> wrote:
> >
> > I thought he was phenomenal in White Tower. Really something.
> >
> > Erica
> >
> > On 8/22/07, betz3424 <betz.mc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks to KoreanWiz News Pages
> > >
> > > 8-22-07
> > > Kim Myung Min (Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
> > > is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
> > > Read about how he becomes his character,
> > > in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
> > > joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536
> > >
> > > More about actor Kim Myung-Min
> > > www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Erica
> > Read me at: http://allaboutericablog.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on
Yahoo! TV.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks to the KoreanWiz News
www.koreanwiz.org


8/23/07: Choi Soo Jong's name has been
added to the list of Koreans who
allegedly faked their academic degrees.

Read about his management agency's
response to the allegation, in a 8/22/07
Korea Times article at:
www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2007/08/11_8794.html

EXXXXXXXXCELLENT! Now I can begin Phase Two! Thank you very much Webcolorchart!
I

webcolorchart <webcolorchart@...> wrote:          Soory. I forgot to
answer your previous post.

Suin in EWG: Chun Mee-Sun
Madam Bukwon in EWG: cannot find any info about the actress
Madam Bu-young in AOW (Archfiends second wife): Im Kyung-Ok
Mrs. Archfiend (his first wife): Chung Sun-Kyung
Gulsabiwu in DJY : Choi Chul-Ho

--- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, shawn williams
<geesehoward4life@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, I know I'm asking LATE! But I'm still asking here people!?!?
I need the actual names of some actors and actresses and I'm getting
zippo, zilch, ZERO! Trying it through normal channels! I'm looking
for the name of the actresses that played Suin in EWG and the
actress who played Madam Bukwon in EWG, I'm also looking for the
name of the actress who played Madam Bu-young in AOW (Archfiends
second wife) and the name of Mrs. Archfiend (his first wife) who is
never actually named. Along with these ladies I am looking for the
name of the actor who plays Gulsabiwu in DJY!
>
> A little help here... anybody... somebody... roger me, willco
me, hello-hello PEOPLE!
>
> Ahem...
>
> In other news, I have reached mid-point of Chapter 8 for Lady
Yoma. I have finally named all of Song-Yune's Imperial Guardsmen,
and I have finally given General Choi a first name, besides...
General Choi. My search for a book of Korean names and their
meanings has proven useless, however! Laserbeak has reported that
the Borders books in Center City may have what I need... I would
dispatch Starscream to retrieve it, but his bumbling ineptitude
could prove fatal in this matter... FOR HIM! Either way, I am still
fleshing out all of the unique powers of each guardsman, but I will
post the names here eventually just to see if my hours and hours of
film study of these historical drama's has yielded anything other
than Blackman's Korean jibba-jabber of NAMES!
>
> And that's just wrong! -_-
>
> I finally settled on General Choi's full name, still mapping out
counties and such as far as this earth's Koryo, so I haven't given
him an actual area that he comes from. I'm kinda behind the eight
ball on my world map... which is uncharacteristic of me. Either way,
General Choi's full name is Choi Suh-Pil, it was a toss up of either
Suh-Pil or Sun-Gil, I went with Suh-Pil, but haven't the faintest of
what his name actually means!?!? Webcolorchart, if you can make
sense of what I've just put together, as far as the meaning of his
name, it would be greatly appreciated. Okay, then, I have taken up
enough of your valuable time... that is all...
>
>
>
> janed1230 <janed1230@...> wrote:
> I didn't see White Tower, but your words also describe
his
> performance as YSS. I'd also add convincing - he's extremely
> talented. When he collapsed in the scene where he was shot the
first
> time, I reached for the phone to call 9-1-1.
>
> Jane
>
> --- In WangGuhn@yahoogroups.com, Erica <erica.entwistle@> wrote:
> >
> > I thought he was phenomenal in White Tower. Really something.
> >
> > Erica
> >
> > On 8/22/07, betz3424 <betz.mc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks to KoreanWiz News Pages
> > >
> > > 8-22-07
> > > Kim Myung Min (Immortal Yi Soon Shin)
> > > is great at playing cold-hearted characters.
> > > Read about how he becomes his character,
> > > in a 8/22/07 JoongAng Daily article at:
> > > joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879536
> > >
> > > More about actor Kim Myung-Min
> > > www.koreanwiz.org/at/actors88.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Erica
> > Read me at: http://allaboutericablog.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on
Yahoo! TV.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could someone give me  the websites that gives up-to-date information on
this drama in English?

It looks like a very interesting drama.

Also, does anyone know who is sponsoring and producing it?

Thanks

sistagirl2003

This is an SBS series.

I found some interesting information on a friend's blog if you are
interested:

http://dramaok.blogspot.com/

First article shows a fashion show to show the costumes.  Scroll down a bit
and get some more information on the show.  Dramaok is a huge kdrama fan and
contributes occasionally to subbing some series.

This series DOES look good!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------------
Erica
www.songilguktranslated.com

On 8/23/07, sistagirl2003 <sistagirl2003@...> wrote:
>
>   Could someone give me the websites that gives up-to-date information on
> this drama in English?
>
> It looks like a very interesting drama.
>
> Also, does anyone know who is sponsoring and producing it?
>
> Thanks
>
> sistagirl2003
>
>
>



--
Erica
Read me at: http://allaboutericablog.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry to trouble you again Webcolorchart, but who was the actress that played
Madam Do-Young, Wang Guhn's 2nd wife? Also, who is the actress that played Olan
in AOW? And what is the name of the actor who played Cho Won-Jung in AOW and is
Go Sagae in DJY!

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Naughty JoYoung, Naughty Chulin !  Shame on you both !   What will JoYoung's
daddy say now???

Fry



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's my boy?

but seriously, he'll probably give him tips on how to keep the family
together...

bob

--
Your future is cold, distant and bleak.
The present exists only in your mind...

What They Don't Want You To Know:
http://www.myspace.com/mindcontroltower

  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: fryanegg@...
> Naughty JoYoung, Naughty Chulin !  Shame on you both !   What will JoYoung's
> daddy say now???
>
> Fry
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]