cassandra wrote:
> Actually, you do have a point...there is a channel for sci-fi fans, so why
> can't there be one for Western fanatics?

Cassandra, there is one...part of the Encore channels.
Roxy

Beth wrote (re: the unsuccessful nature of westerns, etc.):

And having been a part of this original thread I just want to clarify:

It isn't that these shows were super great, just that they were unique.
For me, the attraction is the western genre or a western period piece
which I enjoy.
[snip]
I know they aren't sperfect shows, but can't the networks let fans like
me have at least one show? I mean sci-fi fans wandered in a drought for
years, now the pendulum has sort of swung in another direction and
there are loads of sci-fi shows, all these military shows for fans like
my Dad, all those medical shows, cop shows.<<

Actually, you do have a point...there is a channel for sci-fi fans, so why
can't there be one for Western fanatics? If they have a food channel and a
gameshow channel (for heavens sake), then whyever not a Western channel?
Then I could watch "The Adventures of Brisco County Jr." over and over and
over again. (Mmm, Bruce Campbell..)

Unless Ted Turner wants to keep all the westerns to show on his channel...

cassandra

CMacBean@... wrote:

> Only with Claudia Harrell did he seem to be completely soft-hearted
> with no thought for personal gain.

Of course, that's probably because she was only in the show for one
episode.:)

Allison Dowdall (Thought you'd gotten rid of me, didn't you?;)
aldowdall@...

Good manners are such a rarity that I'll endure excessive
language and all sorts of bowing and scraping just to avoid
the casual incivility so common in most parts of the world.
                            -- Polgara the Sorceress

>Debbie,
>I'm not even a novice concerning the sociology of the South, then or
>now.  (am only part way thru 'Confederates in the Attic'...)  ;)  But
>the pride issue seems to negate the shame issue. (?)  I'll never be 100%
>clear about the deep-seated, sociological/psychological source of
>either, for the South or for Mosby.  Maybe the shame created the pride.
>And maybe the pride is a sham to cover up the shame. (And I'm not joking
>or being sarcastic with the words in that last sentence.)

Roxy - well, even if you weren't joking in that last sentense, I have to
LOL! It was almost poetic. I'm not sure I understand the pride negating
shame thing - if pride is self-esteem, then shame is loss of self-esteem. So
loss of pride caused shame in this case. And because the pride was so great
before the war, the loss of the war caused very deep shame. I guess it's
possible that in a sense the prickly pride that came after the war could be
considered false pride to cover that shame and sense of failure.

I have to say that the pride that came before the war and caused the shame
that came afterwards was never a sham though, IMHO. Southern culture was
built on all of these rituals and this system of honor that is a little
difficult for us modern folk to totally grasp - and it was difficult for the
North to grasp at the time, too. The South was agragrian and almost feudal.
The North had moved into the Industrial Age. It seemed like a lot of
nonesense to the Yankees and that injured that southern pride even before
the war - they were deadly serious and it was very important to them that
they be taken seriously. When the war came, the South boasted that they
would whip the Yankees in a few months - and as they say, "pride goeth
before the fall." It was certainly the case for the South in that
situation - and the fact that they lost the war just irritated the
situation. It's as if they had to prove themselves over and over again after
that - and in a sense that need to prove themselves (or ourselves) is going
on today.

>I enjoy reading the discussions concerning the topic of 'southern-ness',
>but this is not the place for me.  I do see lots of pride in Mosby, more
>pride than shame.  And I think he planned it that way.  This is part of
>his strength, and makes me like him even more.  Ditto for Robert.

I think that Mosby is strong enough to have gotten over the shame - most of
the time. He has moved on in that sense - but he carries that shame like an
improperly healed wound - it seems well on the outside, but it festers
underneath, and when something happens like the attack in The Robbery, it
catapults him right back to where he was after the war and there is nothing
he can do about it - and you know how he HATES to be out of control.

>P.S.  Just have to ask...don't you think his dream of rebuilding Atlanta
>could be a part of his wanting to move on?  A healing thing?  More
>positive than negative?  He has to know that it won't happen, but he
>still has hope...?

Sorry, I know a lot of people would agree with you, but I think the very
fact that his goal is to rebuild ATLANTA, a city that was splendid before
the war and destroyed in the war, says that he is not over anything or
healing at all IMHO. If he wanted to build a new Curtis Wells or even a
Paris of the West or something, I'd say yes. But the fact that he thinks in
terms of rebuilding Atlanta tells me he's still dragging around a lot of
baggage.

-------------
Debbie Minyard
http://www2.netdoor.com/~dminyard/Index.html

>From: CMacBean@...
>
>In a message dated 5/16/1999 3:16:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
>dminyard@... writes:
>
>> Money is only a means to his goal of ultimate power - to be so powerful
that
>>  no one and nothing can ever touch him again. His dream of rebuilding
>Atlanta
>>  is symbolic of his refusal to let go of the past and move on.
>
>Yes, yes, yes!  A lot of people see his dreams for Curtis Wells as progress
>for him, like he's finally gotten over the past, but I agree with your
>assessment, Debbie.  I don't think he's resolved a thing from his past--his
>PTSD is still alive and well in THE ROBBERY, his desire for the protection
>that comes from wealth and power is so strong that he often ignores his
>conscience until it's too late (eg. REDEMPTION), and his grief over Mary
AND
>Hannah is simply buried as deep as he can get it in his unconscious.  He
>lives in an armored shell of himself, which doesn't look like progress to
me.
>

Colleen, I had a feeling you'd agree with that one<G>.

-------------
Debbie Minyard
http://www2.netdoor.com/~dminyard/Index.html

Dori wrote:
> I think you're right that she didn't fully know the power she had over
> Clay.  I think she did have a tiny inkling, though...<<

I think so, too.  When she requested his help in Snowbound, as a
'friend', she knew something.

> As for doing anything Hannah wanted, hmmm.  In the beginning, say up to
> DUTY BOUND, I think maybe yeah, he would have.  But the more he was around
> Hannah, the more he would have started to see differences, to realize that
> she really wasn't Mary.  IMO, by the time we got to TIES THAT BIND, he
> wasn't nearly as irrational on the subject as he was at the end of WWTB.
> He was, to use Colleen's metaphor, several steps from delusional.  <G>

Actually, I was thinking of his behavior toward her in 'Ties...'.  What
wouldn't he have done?  If she'd fallen limp into his arms, and
murmured..."take me away..."  (Whew!)  He was pretty rational (sort of)
when he approached her in Snowbound.  Certainly he was hoping she'd ask
something of him other than that he'd disappear.  He'd already had that
sparkle of encouragement.  I can't think of anything he wouldn't have
done for her, except maybe murder.  Hannah or Mary, married or not...

But later...he'd have regrets, not necessarily for himself, but for her.

Roxy

I agree with Lisa...Thanks so much, Sheila, for all your work as LD
ListMom.  You've done a trememdous job.  So now it's time to relax and
let onelist do it.  Maybe you'll have time to post more of your own
thoughts now.  :)
Roxy

In a message dated 5/16/1999 7:24:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
cleindor@... writes:

> And would he have resented her for it, do you think?   Would he have come
>  to hate her for -not- being Mary?  I cannot imagine Hannah putting up with
>  Clay's notions about Mary for very long.

Oh, no, she definitely would NOT put up with it!  Can't you just hear her
saying (with hands on hips), "You mean you married me just because I reminded
you of a woman who's been dead for 14 years?"  Because you know she'd figure
it out sooner or later--especially if he slipped up and called her "Mary."
To be fair, she might try to be understanding about it at first, but with
Clay's control-freak tendencies (can't you just hear =him= telling her in a
gently corrective manner how ladies should behave?), she would eventually
explode in anger.

We've discussed this one before on the list and some people think they
would've worked things out eventually.  I'm doubtful.  I don't think he would
come to hate her, but I do believe he'd come to regret his pursuit of her,
and it wouldn't be long before he'd be like Newt, spending lots of time away
from home on "business."  He would differ from Newt, though, in that some
side-trips would be to see favored whores out of town.

Colleen

In a message dated 5/16/1999 8:07:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
casummers@... writes:

>  For me,
>  that is huge part of the character's charm. That one moment he can be so
>  ruthless and the next he can be so abolutley guiless.  Clay was/is a
>  beautifully realized character, with a one-two punch of looks and charm and
>  tons and tons of flamboyant chuzphah...   JMHO

I will NEVER argue with you about that, Catherine! :)

Colleen

Jane wrote:
< Westerns just don't do well for some strange reason.
because Mike wrote:
>  I guess we all were raised on Bonanza and Gunsmoke

And Cassandra commented:
"I thought Legacy was very slow moving, as was Magnificent Seven. I
also thought Dr. Quinn was rather a stretch to watch."


And having been a part of this original thread I just want to clarify:

It isn't that these shows were super great, just that they were unique.
For me, the attraction is the western genre or a western period piece
which I enjoy.

My Dad liked war movies. So I watched them with him. (Lots of them.)
That was okay.

But I *prefer* westerns. They are my favorites.

And I want to watch NEW ones occasionally, not just old tapes I've seen
before. I need new stuff.

So ... I've sort of forced myself to watch 'Legacy', 'Mag7' and even
'Dr Quinn, Medicine Guru'


I know they aren't sperfect shows, but can't the networks let fans like
me have at least one show? I mean sci-fi fans wandered in a drought for
years, now the pendulum has sort of swung in another direction and
there are loads of sci-fi shows, all these military shows for fans like
my Dad, all those medical shows, cop shows.

Where are the westerns? Where are the period pieces?
Why won't someone give me what I need? (WAIL!)

Well, glad we straightened that out.

Beth B.




_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

>From: CMacBean@...
>
>In a message dated 5/16/1999 4:55:52 PM Central Daylight Time,
>casummers@... writes:
>
>> Such
>>  an insufferable bastard most of the time... and such a push over for
>>  women... any woman at all.  Must have something to do with that *protect
>the
>>  women and children* Southern charm.  After all, look at Mattie's trial
and
>>  what about Florrie and then there was Annette O'Toole... <characters
name
>is
>>  escaping me at the moment>  and let's not forget Amanda.....
>
>Catherine,
>I don't think he was a pushover for Amanda in any way whatsoever.  I think
he
>was keeping a close eye on her, and he used her as she used him sexually,
but
>he never really trusted her because she was a rival for power in their
little
>universe of CW.  He wasn't a pushover for Florie, either--it took her
getting
>beaten to trigger his "protect the women and children" Southern ethic.  He
>did have a soft spot for Mattie, but that didn't stop him from first
yelling
>at her about how she messed up his plans in THE ALLIANCE.  He was a
pushover
>for Hannah in TS, but he had selfish motives there.  Only with Claudia
>Harrell did he seem to be completely soft-hearted with no thought for
>personal gain.
>

well, if you want to look at it that way.... I think only with Mattie, was
he totally selfless, because you can't deny, with all of the others, he had
the oldest motive in the book.  personally, I think there is always a
certain amount of selfishness in every realtionship. It's impossible to
avoid. I guess the only point I was trying to make was, that southern
gentleman<I can always see him listening to his mama tell him how to treat a
lady> always came shining through when it really came down to it.  For me,
that is huge part of the character's charm. That one moment he can be so
ruthless and the next he can be so abolutley guiless.  Clay was/is a
beautifully realized character, with a one-two punch of looks and charm and
tons and tons of flamboyant chuzphah...   JMHO
catherine

Roxy said:
>Hmmmm. I think that if Hannah had crooked her little finger, married or
>not, she'd have had him.  He would've done anything she wanted, asked,
>allowed...whatever.  (But I don't think she knew the power she had, did
>she...?  It's possible she suspected, tho.)

I think you're right that she didn't fully know the power she had over
Clay.  I think she did have a tiny inkling, though...

As for doing anything Hannah wanted, hmmm.  In the beginning, say up to
DUTY BOUND, I think maybe yeah, he would have.  But the more he was around
Hannah, the more he would have started to see differences, to realize that
she really wasn't Mary.  IMO, by the time we got to TIES THAT BIND, he
wasn't nearly as irrational on the subject as he was at the end of WWTB.
He was, to use Colleen's metaphor, several steps from delusional.  <G>

Colleen said:
>  As a result of  this hypnotic dissociation in which Hannah once again
> takes him "back to a  better time," he would think he was with
> Mary--until she did something to jar  his imaginal reality, that is.
> And in a longer-term relationship, it would  get harder and harder to
> maintain the illusion as she continued to assert her  own individual
> personality.

And would he have resented her for it, do you think?   Would he have come
to hate her for -not- being Mary?  I cannot imagine Hannah putting up with
Clay's notions about Mary for very long.

Dori

cleindor@...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   "I believe...that no suffering is lost; that each drop
                 of blood and every tear counts..."
                                                       François Mauriac
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>Hee hee, yes this Mosbyite happens to have such a list - but for some reason I
>have it only for 'The Series' :

<G>  And I happen to have the TOY list.  Lovers' Leap, Betrayal, Partners,
and hmmm.  One of my tapes is missing, so there may be a couple more...

Dori

cleindor@...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   "I believe...that no suffering is lost; that each drop
                 of blood and every tear counts..."
                                                       François Mauriac
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Debbie said:
> In fact,
>the southern society was so much like a warrior society that it was almost
>as if they were stockpiling weapons in the form of their sons.

I had never thought of it this way, Debbie, but this is exactly what it
was.  Geez, that's a chilling thought...

Dori

cleindor@...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   "I believe...that no suffering is lost; that each drop
                 of blood and every tear counts..."
                                                       François Mauriac
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Sheila my friend,

I wanted to thank you for so unselfishly taking time out each day for all
these years to send mail to all us LDers!  I'm sure we'll all like Onelist, I
know the folks on ScottBairstowCentral do.  It won't be the same knowing that
our "list mom" sent our daily dose of mail to us.

Thank You!

Lisa
LFhere@...

Absolutely Scott Bairstow
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Cinema/9229/absolute.html

catherine summers wrote:
> hum,
>   but does anyone but me think that is part of Mosby's charm that he's like
> that with all of his women, and somehow they never seem to realize it?  Such
> an insufferable bastard most of the time... and such a push over for
> women... any woman at all.  Must have something to do with that *protect the
> women and children* Southern charm.  After all, look at Mattie's trial and
> what about Florrie and then there was Annette O'Toole... <characters name is
> escaping me at the moment>  and let's not forget Amanda..... shall I go
> on?<g>

Ooooo.  That man is charming!!!  But I don't think the other women had
the power that Hannah had.  He'd protect them, go out of his way for
them, but...not go to the ends of the earth the way he would've for
Hannah.  We see the Florrie kiss...we see something (?) happen with
Amanda, and a smooch with Claudia Harrel, but Clay with Hannah...whoa!

Roxy

Debbie,
I'm not even a novice concerning the sociology of the South, then or
now.  (am only part way thru 'Confederates in the Attic'...)  ;)  But
the pride issue seems to negate the shame issue. (?)  I'll never be 100%
clear about the deep-seated, sociological/psychological source of
either, for the South or for Mosby.  Maybe the shame created the pride.
And maybe the pride is a sham to cover up the shame. (And I'm not joking
or being sarcastic with the words in that last sentence.)

I enjoy reading the discussions concerning the topic of 'southern-ness',
but this is not the place for me.  I do see lots of pride in Mosby, more
pride than shame.  And I think he planned it that way.  This is part of
his strength, and makes me like him even more.  Ditto for Robert.

Roxy

P.S.  Just have to ask...don't you think his dream of rebuilding Atlanta
could be a part of his wanting to move on?  A healing thing?  More
positive than negative?  He has to know that it won't happen, but he
still has hope...?


Debbie Minyard (by way of Sheila Swanson ) wrote:
> Warning - I haven't posted in a while, so I've been saving up a bunch of
> words and here they are!
>
> Roxy, I agree with your assessment about the New Atlanta being a rebuilding.
> And of course Mosby's shame came from the defeat of the South AND from his
> own personal defeat.
>
> It's that darn southern pride that gets so much attention. In a lot of ways,
> southern pride is one of the driving forces that caused the war in the first
> place. Southerners before the war clung to their communities and the larger
> community - the particular state they lived in (the state's rights issue
> wasn't just a smoke screen). Young men were taught to be loyal to their
> community and to distrust outsiders, especially outsiders who scoffed at
> their way of life and, by extension, their honor and pride. Because honor
> was the lynchpin of the whole system. The South was agrarian and feudal -
> I'm talking mainly about the plantation society here. The young men vied for
> position in the pecking order by testing themselves against one another,
> often in blood sports - but the rivalry that resulted from these tests also
> forged a bond between them that meant they would always be there to defend
> one another against outsiders.
>
> Everything in the old South was about manhood - proving manhood, testing
> manhood.... And what greater test is there for manhood than war? In fact,
> the southern society was so much like a warrior society that it was almost
> as if they were stockpiling weapons in the form of their sons.
>
> So what happened in the war? That ultimate test of manhood? Well, southern
> men - Mosby specifically, failed at the most important things to his entire
> identity - defending his families, defending his community (the Confederacy)
> and by extension, his honor and his pride. If, as we suspect, he did break
> in prison, that would have only added another layer to his shame. That he
> survived at all is a testimony to his inner strength. But I'm not sure he
> realizes his own strength. He is still testing himself every day of his
> life. He lives in a place that is like a war zone? Why? For one thing, it is
> a place where he doesn't have to answer to anyone but himself. For another,
> it is a place that allows him to refight the war in some symbolic sense and
> this time win!
>
> Personally, I see him as more motivated by power than by financial gain.
> Money is only a means to his goal of ultimate power - to be so powerful that
> no one and nothing can ever touch him again. His dream of rebuilding Atlanta
> is symbolic of his refusal to let go of the past and move on.
>
> -------------
> Debbie Minyard

It's amazing how much discussion one kiss can generate.
But, I thought I'd add a little more.  First, I agree with Paul and Terr
about
The Bridges of MC. I couldn't get into it. I thought she should have just
left
her husband before he got home or never started the whole mess. Sometimes
I really like Meryl Streep and sometimes she just works my nerves.

Would Clay have stopped if Hannah had encouraged him. I don't know.  If he
didn't
and they had made love. I think it would have been entirely possible for
him to
call her Mary. And what a wake up call that would've been. He seemed to
finally
be seeing Hannah when he looked at her near the end instead of his Mary.( I
liked
Robinita's Coitus Interruptus. )

Roxy wrote she can't find much wrong with Mosby no matter what he does.
I have to say the same. Even though I think he was kind of pushing his
advantage
If I would have been in Hannah's place I would have said Newt who? And if
he wanted
to call me Mary, OK. He does seem to have a soft spot where women are
concerned
most of the time. Look how many times Mattie told him to mind his own
business when
he really was concerned about her. With Florie it seemed like he cared but,
couldn't
show it until she was hurt. I don't know if that was because of occupation
or what. And
in the Traveler the 1st season he was everthing Gail wrote he was where
Claudia was
concerned. I loved the fanfic that filled in the holes of that episode.

Roxy, you're not only one with more then one toaster. We've got a toaster
oven we've
been using for years. But, I keep the regular toaster on the counter. It
only toasts one
side time at a time. I think I just never know when I'll need it in a
pinch.

Talk to you later,
Brenda McFarland

In a message dated 5/16/1999 3:16:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
dminyard@... writes:

> Money is only a means to his goal of ultimate power - to be so powerful that
>  no one and nothing can ever touch him again. His dream of rebuilding
Atlanta
>  is symbolic of his refusal to let go of the past and move on.

Yes, yes, yes!  A lot of people see his dreams for Curtis Wells as progress
for him, like he's finally gotten over the past, but I agree with your
assessment, Debbie.  I don't think he's resolved a thing from his past--his
PTSD is still alive and well in THE ROBBERY, his desire for the protection
that comes from wealth and power is so strong that he often ignores his
conscience until it's too late (eg. REDEMPTION), and his grief over Mary AND
Hannah is simply buried as deep as he can get it in his unconscious.  He
lives in an armored shell of himself, which doesn't look like progress to me.

Colleen

In a message dated 5/16/1999 4:55:52 PM Central Daylight Time,
casummers@... writes:

> Such
>  an insufferable bastard most of the time... and such a push over for
>  women... any woman at all.  Must have something to do with that *protect
the
>  women and children* Southern charm.  After all, look at Mattie's trial and
>  what about Florrie and then there was Annette O'Toole... <characters name
is
>  escaping me at the moment>  and let's not forget Amanda.....

Catherine,
I don't think he was a pushover for Amanda in any way whatsoever.  I think he
was keeping a close eye on her, and he used her as she used him sexually, but
he never really trusted her because she was a rival for power in their little
universe of CW.  He wasn't a pushover for Florie, either--it took her getting
beaten to trigger his "protect the women and children" Southern ethic.  He
did have a soft spot for Mattie, but that didn't stop him from first yelling
at her about how she messed up his plans in THE ALLIANCE.  He was a pushover
for Hannah in TS, but he had selfish motives there.  Only with Claudia
Harrell did he seem to be completely soft-hearted with no thought for
personal gain.

Colleen

catherine summers wrote:

> From: "catherine summers" <casummers@...>
>
> hum,
>   but does anyone but me think that is part of Mosby's charm that he's like
> that with all of his women, and somehow they never seem to realize it?  Such
> an insufferable bastard most of the time... and such a push over for
> women... any woman at all.  Must have something to do with that *protect the
> women and children* Southern charm.  After all, look at Mattie's trial and
> what about Florrie and then there was Annette O'Toole... <characters name is
> escaping me at the moment>  and let's not forget Amanda..... shall I go
> on?<g>

Catherine you forgot to include little old Lisa2 in the list of push-overs !
Even if he was a bastard to me I would say to myself  ' Oh I just love when he
gets nasty it's so sexy !'

Little old Lisa2



>
>
> catherine
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Are you hogging all the fun?
> http://www.onelist.com
> Friends tell friends about ONElist!

Catherine asked:
> hum, but does anyone but me think that is part of
Mosby's charm that he's like  that with all of his women, and somehow
they never seem to realize it?  Such an insufferable bastard most of
the time... and such a push over for  women... any woman at all.  Must
have something to do with that *protect the  women and children*
Southern charm.  After all, look at Mattie's trial and what about
Florrie and then there was Annette O'Toole... <characters name is
escaping me at the moment>  and let's not forget Amanda..... shall I go
on?" >


Annette O'Toole = what was her character's name anyway? Now that's
going to drive me crazy.

Ah, got it! Claudia.

Anyway, Mosby as rescuer for shore. And he's good at it.  I think Mr.
Mosby lives in a dream world of sorts, halfway between the past and the
present he lives in.

And the love he has for the women in his ife is very nicely kept apart
formthe rthings he does and experiences.

We discussed his attitude towards Mrs. Grayson and how that seemed,
well, unusual, for a plantation boy to be so SO respectful of a colored
woman in that day and age.

But I think that for whatever reason, Colonel Mosby  holds a worse
grudge against the guys who killed his wife (though I believe she's
living up on the Powder River, teeching school on Woodrow's ranch) than
any of the others involved, including negroes. He still sticks with
Robert, etc., and when he and Robert drink and dance in that saloon,
Clay smiles and toasts his 'Yankee friends'. 'Course they come out
singing Dixie, in one of my fav Robert /Clay scenes of all time but ...
maybe some of the Rebs were in the saloon?


Weirdness.

What I'm struggling to say is I don't think Clay hates the Yankees
altogether for the war, just the ones who killed his wife, and not the
negroes either.

I think he does not want to be completely consumed by bitterness, which
is in part why he suffers so when Call is, and why he places so much
hope in the women he loves.


TTFn,

BethB.






_____________________________________________________________
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>From: Roxy <mle@...> (by way of Sheila Swanson <swanson@...>)
>
>Dori wrote:
>>And of course, if Clay had thought Newt was
>> still alive, he'd never have kissed her in the first place.<<
>
>Hmmmm. I think that if Hannah had crooked her little finger, married or
>not, she'd have had him.  He would've done anything she wanted, asked,
>allowed...whatever.  (But I don't think she knew the power she had, did
>she...?  It's possible she suspected, tho.)
>
hum,
   but does anyone but me think that is part of Mosby's charm that he's like
that with all of his women, and somehow they never seem to realize it?  Such
an insufferable bastard most of the time... and such a push over for
women... any woman at all.  Must have something to do with that *protect the
women and children* Southern charm.  After all, look at Mattie's trial and
what about Florrie and then there was Annette O'Toole... <characters name is
escaping me at the moment>  and let's not forget Amanda..... shall I go
on?<g>

catherine

Tim said:
>>    Why doesn't  anybody see his lust for power is driven from his sham.
>> His sham that he was conquered by yankees. Mosby is just trying to gain
>> his place in life again, he's trying to show he is not weak, and not
>> conquered

Well, some of us do lean toward this theory.  <G>  And I think his drive
for power also has to do with the deep need he now has for control, which
IMO dates from his time in the prison camp.  He would have had almost no
control over what happened to him--and he mentions this in THE ROBBERY,
when he's talking to Amanda about being beaten every day.  I think that
control thing was a big factor in how relentlessly he pursued Earl Hastings
in FEAR, too.

And Terry, yo, I'm getting to work on those TOY tapes... <G>

Dori

cleindor@...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  "...there was nothing he need do for me but be real.  Beyond
  that, I would only ask the gods for a word with him now and
  then, to prove that he still lived and walked the earth."
                                      Mary Renault, THE MASK OF APOLLO
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hi all -

You have probably received my message through Onelist about the LD list now
being automated.  The new address is:

LonesomeDove@onelist.com

Just write there the same as you used to write to me.  Your mail will
automatically be forwarded to everyone on the list.

I hope this is OK with everyone.  My life is too crazy right now to be able
to forward the mail with the regularity and consistency it deserves.  Things
will get better, but I think this will be best anyway.  I thank you all for
being so patient with me about this!!

The only real difference is that once you hit the "send" button, your mail
is outta here!  You will be unable to mail me later and ask me to hold or
dump mail in which you've said something you regret.  So consider what you
say BEFORE you mail it.  ;-)

Thank you all - I'm looking forward to more wonderful LD discussion!

Sheila

>Does anyone have a short episode list with Mosby-less episodes noted?  I
fell
>asleep last night waiting to see if he showed up in last night's episode.
<g>
>
>Terry


Terry,  I assume you want First Season:

Wild Horses
Last Stand
High Lonesome
Blood Money
Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show

It seems like there were more - did I miss any?

-------------
Debbie Minyard
http://www2.netdoor.com/~dminyard/Index.html

Colleen wrote:
> I'm afraid you'll have to search your soul to find out why you're
> toaster-retentive, Roxy!  My problem is with can openers that have an
> irrational fear of opening cans--they'll shred labels and even grind metal
> dust off the edges, they'll open them part way or just give up midstream and
> drop the half-opened can onto the counter, but the damn things refuse to
> remove the lids!<<

Colleen,
I've done the soul-searching, and have reached the conclusion that my
propensity for keeping broken toasters is......HOPE!!!!  It's the same
reason that I'm Mosby-retentive.  And also why I watch Will & Grace.
(BTW, I have the can opener thing solved.  I only have manual
ones...great exercise.)

Dori wrote:
>And of course, if Clay had thought Newt was
> still alive, he'd never have kissed her in the first place.<<

Hmmmm. I think that if Hannah had crooked her little finger, married or
not, she'd have had him.  He would've done anything she wanted, asked,
allowed...whatever.  (But I don't think she knew the power she had, did
she...?  It's possible she suspected, tho.)

Roxy

Terry:

Hee hee, yes this Mosbyite happens to have such a list - but for some reason I
have it only for 'The Series' :

TS: Wild Horses, Last Stand, High Lonesome, The Road Home, Blood Money, Buffalo
Bill

Hope this helps.

Lisa2

"by way of Sheila Swanson " wrote:

> Does anyone have a short episode list with Mosby-less episodes noted?  I fell
> asleep last night waiting to see if he showed up in last night's episode. <g>
>
> Terry
> owen6511@...
> owen6511@...

>Hi Tim,
>This has been my inbox for a few days now...took me a few reads to
>figure out that you meant 'shame', not'sham'.  Sham definitely could
>apply to a few things that Mosby's done, tho.  ;)
>
>Anyhoo, I'm not sure that shame is the word to use regarding Mosby.  Do
>you think he was shamed by the South's defeat?  Or his own?  Hmmmmm.
>(...am discounting the premise of 'Darkly Bound', and speculation from
>'The Robbery'.)
>
>Mosby's pain definitely originates with the War and its events, and it's
>very safe to say that he's not over it.  And the New Atlanta is a
>rebuilding.  Most of Mosby's activities are based on materialistic gain
>(The Kiss excluded...), and it's true that those things will definitely
>not bring him the happiness he's seeking,  meaning he won't succeed.
>
>Roxy

Warning - I haven't posted in a while, so I've been saving up a bunch of
words and here they are!

Roxy, I agree with your assessment about the New Atlanta being a rebuilding.
And of course Mosby's shame came from the defeat of the South AND from his
own personal defeat.

It's that darn southern pride that gets so much attention. In a lot of ways,
southern pride is one of the driving forces that caused the war in the first
place. Southerners before the war clung to their communities and the larger
community - the particular state they lived in (the state's rights issue
wasn't just a smoke screen). Young men were taught to be loyal to their
community and to distrust outsiders, especially outsiders who scoffed at
their way of life and, by extension, their honor and pride. Because honor
was the lynchpin of the whole system. The South was agrarian and feudal -
I'm talking mainly about the plantation society here. The young men vied for
position in the pecking order by testing themselves against one another,
often in blood sports - but the rivalry that resulted from these tests also
forged a bond between them that meant they would always be there to defend
one another against outsiders.

Everything in the old South was about manhood - proving manhood, testing
manhood.... And what greater test is there for manhood than war? In fact,
the southern society was so much like a warrior society that it was almost
as if they were stockpiling weapons in the form of their sons.

So what happened in the war? That ultimate test of manhood? Well, southern
men - Mosby specifically, failed at the most important things to his entire
identity - defending his families, defending his community (the Confederacy)
and by extension, his honor and his pride. If, as we suspect, he did break
in prison, that would have only added another layer to his shame. That he
survived at all is a testimony to his inner strength. But I'm not sure he
realizes his own strength. He is still testing himself every day of his
life. He lives in a place that is like a war zone? Why? For one thing, it is
a place where he doesn't have to answer to anyone but himself. For another,
it is a place that allows him to refight the war in some symbolic sense and
this time win!

Personally, I see him as more motivated by power than by financial gain.
Money is only a means to his goal of ultimate power - to be so powerful that
no one and nothing can ever touch him again. His dream of rebuilding Atlanta
is symbolic of his refusal to let go of the past and move on.

-------------
Debbie Minyard
http://www2.netdoor.com/~dminyard/Index.html

Paul wrote:
> Remember the wild, almost feral look in Mosby's eyes in DOWN COME RAIN when
>  he was in Hannah's room when she was trying on her wedding dress and the
way
>  he advanced on her?  The only thing that stopped him was Ida walking in.

Well, Paul, I can't argue with you about that feral look--and oh, so
seductively appealing it is to us Mosby fans, too (I'm hearing the strains of
"Wild Thing" in the background of my mind even as I type)!  But he was one
step away from delusional in those early days around Hannah.  I've also
always contended that he would slip up in the heat of passion and call her
"Mary" if he ever managed to make love to her, at least the first time.  But
by the end of TS, he had had enough time and experience with Hannah to
distinguish more firmly between her and Mary on a rational level.  I think
perhaps that rationality could have prevailed for a moment in the cabin with
a grief-stricken Hannah, long enough to trigger his admittedly under-utilized
conscience and make him question his actions as I suggested.  But it might
have gone as you described, too, with no hesitation unless Hannah herself had
stopped him.

Dori wrote:
> Would Clay have completely lost track of things, and come to believe that
>  Hannah really was Mary?  Or would he have come to terms with the fact that
>  she wasn't his dead wife come back to him, and loved her for herself?  Or
>  would it have been something in between?

I'm not sure if you're referring here to just the hypothetical lovemaking
after the kiss in the cabin, or to the entire relationship, Dori.  If it's
the former you mean, as I indicate above, I think it would be something in
between.  He could remember that Hannah and Mary were not the same person
when in a rational frame of mind, but in the heightened emotions and
sensations of sex, he might go into a vividly-experienced "flashback" of a
more benign nature than the ones he had later in THE ROBBERY.  As a result of
this hypnotic dissociation in which Hannah once again takes him "back to a
better time," he would think he was with Mary--until she did something to jar
his imaginal reality, that is.  And in a longer-term relationship, it would
get harder and harder to maintain the illusion as she continued to assert her
own individual personality.

Colleen