In a message dated 10/25/2000 10:39:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mecurtin@... writes:


> you don't have to limit discussion and
> examples to HL fanfic, either. The key is what helps HL
> writers, which can (and should) include examples from
> The Epic of Gilgamesh (does Methos play Gilgamesh or
> Enkidu?) on.
>

The only fanfic I've read using the Epic has Methos as Enkidu, which always
struck me as way off. But the story was interesting despite my reservation
about Methos being the wild man. As I recall, the author had derived her
story idea from a novelization of the epic that took some interesting
liberties, not the Sumerian versions.

Ann

Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:
>
> I fretted (and
> > occasionally still do gnash my teeth a little) that And Then Some starts
> > off slow. (Methos walks into a room. There's a cat. Some hook, no? :-) )
>
> Well, you've got me. Where can I find the story?

(Blinking in astonishment) Uh...hmm... I can't fathom how that could've
worked! And I wasn't really trying to plug the story; however, it's
available at

http://lonestar.texas.net/~lochness/lochn6highlander.html

Warning: It's a WIP, and even unfinished it's *long*.
--
InverNessie                         | I got great eyes! They're better
lochness@...                  | than 20/20, and they're BLUE!
That deep water only *looks* still. |   --John Crichton, Farscape

OK, to be selfish... I've seen two potentially good stories mentioned
in the first 27 posts to this list.  Neither of the notes included
URLs for me to go read the works :)

Can I request that if a story is noted, could you please include the
URL ?   It was save you from getting an individual email from me
asking where to find the story  (Hi JANE !!! )

Thanks,
Gershwhen  (off in search of more godo reading)

I fretted (and
> occasionally still do gnash my teeth a little) that And Then Some starts
> off slow. (Methos walks into a room. There's a cat. Some hook, no? :-) )

Well, you've got me. Where can I find the story?

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project

Lorie945@... wrote:
>
> Is a "hook" necessary for a fan audience?  What do the writers on list
> think?

Actually, I'd argue that it may be *more* necessary for a fan audience -
which I think is a kind of a darn shame because I don't consider myself
especially good at starting a story off with a hook. I fretted (and
occasionally still do gnash my teeth a little) that And Then Some starts
off slow. (Methos walks into a room. There's a cat. Some hook, no? :-) )

Fan audiences have *tons* of stuff to choose from, and although we're
not trying to get them to spend money on our work, they also don't have
the investment that might make them keep reading through a passage that
reads a little slow. They hit a bad patch, and it's easy to push "back"
and go read something more to their liking. Costs them nothing to do so.
If you don't get them interested in the first few paragraphs, you've
lost them. *Click*, and they're gone.

>  The readers?  Does it depend on how well-known/loved an author
> is?

On the reader level, yes, I think so, at least to some extent. If it's
not a good story, I suspect even a real fan of the author might give up,
but I am likely to be at least a little more tolerant of someone who's
already delivered one or more stories I really liked.

>  I read just about everything, even when punctuation is missing
> and spelling/word choice is hysterical, so I'm interested in what more
> selective readers than myself find appealing or necessary to continue
> past the first lines of a story.

You have more patience than I do, then - missing punctuation, bad
grammar and/or hysterical spelling/word choice will drive me away inside
a line or two. I never knew a carpenter who could build a house without
knowing how to hammer in a nail, and I'm not persuaded a writer who
can't construct solid sentences can build a great story, either. The
spelling gripes me more than anything - we all do netfic on computers,
and in these days of spellcheckers, there's no excuse for more than the
occasional misspelling.
--
InverNessie                         | I got great eyes! They're better
lochness@...                  | than 20/20, and they're BLUE!
That deep water only *looks* still. |   --John Crichton, Farscape

Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:
>
> I personally have trouble truly enjoying this story because of
> something about the sentence structure. I keep feeling that
> there aren't enough commas, or something: the sentences
> read as stale, flat and unprofitable to me. For instance, here
> (randomly chosen bit from the beginning):
> - - - -
> He walked slowly along Upper Thames Street, a road that shadowed the banks of
the
> river along the south side of the City. He breathed shallowly to avoid
inhaling more
> than necessary of the traffic fumes exuded by the four lanes of traffic backed
up to
> and from the Blackfriars Tunnel. The cars' polluting effects could be seen in
the
> haze at the edge of sight, misting slightly the otherwise clear blue sky. He
had been
> contemplating hailing a taxi but seeing the traffic decided against it.
> - - - -
>
> I don't know what the real root of my dissatisfaction with
> this style might be. It's an itchy feeling, almost, but one
> I can't pin down.

I agree. It's the passive voice in this passage that bugs me. It makes
the language feel stilted and makes the whole description feel removed
from reality - almost as if the author were holding herself at arm's
length from what she's describing. Nothing about this description makes
me feel as if I'm *there.*
--
InverNessie                         | I got great eyes! They're better
lochness@...                  | than 20/20, and they're BLUE!
That deep water only *looks* still. |   --John Crichton, Farscape

And I forgot to add -- you don't have to limit discussion and
examples to HL fanfic, either. The key is what helps HL
writers, which can (and should) include examples from
The Epic of Gilgamesh (does Methos play Gilgamesh or
Enkidu?) on.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project

Lorie wrote:
> I'm interested in the critique of fanfic as a means to learn more
> about writing for myself -- and the discussion here has already been
> profitable.  Hope this post doesn't amount to hijacking the list off
> topic.

Officially, nothing could be further from the case. Laura
& I have a political purpose: to help HL writers do their
best work. We also have a scientific purpose: to see if
groups like this can help a whole fandom break Sturgeon's
Law. *Whatever* helps you become a better writer is on
topic, by definition.

Laura & I both are looking at writing (including fanfic) as
rhetoric: a technology (technique? method?) for getting
from the idea in the writer's head to the response in the
reader. Questions such as the one you posed are crucial,
because unless you know how some readers respond to
a particular thing you do, you can't know whether you should
do it or not.

It's like -- you may be fond of Gorgonzola pizza and think it
tastes great. But you won't be a good cook unless you realize
that not everybody agrees, and that there are some groups
-- e.g. of 6-year-olds -- where everyone will probably hate it.
This realization depends on honest feedback, such as the
6-year-olds will give unprompted <yuuuuuck!!>, but you might
have to ask me ("So, Mary Ellen, why are you feeding the
Gorgonzola pizza to the ficus?").

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project

I definitely agree with Jane about figuring out where the story starts. I've
been using that vantage point for writing and beta reading for some time.  I
originally learned it from Marion Zimmer Bradley at a writing workshop.  She
was using the perspective of a slushpile reader at a magazine, but it's also
useful when you're writing for busy netfic readers who are scanning through
hundreds of posts and/or websites.(AOL spellcheck wanted me to say
"slashable" instead of slushpile, BTW. LoL!)  If you've figured out where the
story starts then you are more likely to hook the reader.

BTW Jane, where can I find this HL/FK story of yours?

                                                     Shomeret

Jane wrote:

<For me the thing that matters is getting the story to start at the right
moment. It's not so much thinking of a hook: it's knowing what the story is
about, and being ready to ruthlessly sacrifice bits that you have written
that actually take place before the story really starts.>

Somewhat OT, and I don't think it's really what Jane was getting at, but
I'm really enjoying this idea of The Story; a creation that already exists,
stretching backward and forward in time, just waiting for you to pick the
right spot to jump in and start telling.  It's...comforting, somehow.

Sara

on 10/25/00 3:49 PM, kageorge@... at kageorge@... wrote:

>
> I figure I've got about three or four paragraphs to draw a reader in to want
> to know more.  That's what I usually give an unknown author.  There are
> certain writers who could write laundry lists and I will read every word,
> but I do not assume I fall into that category with anyone.

That's pretty much it for me as well.  I don't expect that every story I
write will appeal to everyone, but I enjoy trying to make the beginning of a
story open and active somehow, simply because I like to start a story that
way.  I occasionally veer off into something more experimental, but I like
hitting the ground running.

<snip>

> The hook can simply be a wonderfully evocative description of a place
> or a feeling.  But whatever it is, those first few paragraphs have to give
> me a reason to want to read the rest of the story.

Actually, the opening for me doesn't even have to be incredibly well
written, as long as it piques my interest.  I nattered about PWP a little in
another thread, and really, most PWPs don't grab my interest because I feel
like I've read that setting/scenario before.  But someone who does a little
more and goes the extra mile on an opening can hook me, even if I've read a
something similar a thousand times before.

-rache

Lorie945@... wrote:
> Is a "hook" necessary for a fan audience?  What do the writers on list
> think?  The readers?  Does it depend on how well-known/loved an author
> is?  I read just about everything, even when punctuation is missing
> and spelling/word choice is hysterical, so I'm interested in what more
> selective readers than myself find appealing or necessary to continue
> past the first lines of a story.

One rule of telling a story that I think I stole from somewhere else,
but I can't remember from where, now, is "If there's going to be an
impossible coincidence, get it over with right at the start."

This tends both to start the story at the point of action, and also
(AFAIK) readers tend not to notice that the coincidence was impossible.

For me the thing that matters is getting the story to start at the right
moment. It's not so much thinking of a hook: it's knowing what the story
is about, and being ready to ruthlessly sacrifice bits that you have
written that actually take place before the story really starts. (The
other thing is working out who is telling the story, but that's a
slightly different issue.)

For example, I wrote a HL/FK crossover story, "Run Through Fire". It
opens with Duncan and Methos talking about Richie in Joe's bar. I am not
certain if that was the right place to start, though it introduced
almost everybody in the story, because the story *really* started when
Duncan handed Richie over to Methos for training while Duncan went to
New Orleans.

A worse mistake, though, would have been if I had thought that I had to
explain Methos' relationship with LaCroix, about which I had all sorts
of interesting ideas... but for the story of "RTF" it didn't matter what
Methos' past relationship with LaCroix was, but only what his present
relationship with him was: and that could be depicted by their reactions
to each other throughout the scenes in which they interact. Methos'
opinion of vampires in general is freely expressed and particularly
clear when he's interacting with Nick Knight.

The scene with Duncan and Methos in Joe's bar was self-indulgence: it
was easier for me to introduce the characters through conversation (and
of course once I'd written the conversation, I liked it and didn't want
to lose it) but I don't think that it was absolutely necessary to the
story, and it certainly took place before the story proper started: and
perhaps gave too much weight to the character of Connor MacLeod - which
was a teaser, a false hook if you like, since Connor was a minor
character in the real story.

> I'm interested in the critique of fanfic as a means to learn more
> about writing for myself -- and the discussion here has already been
> profitable.  Hope this post doesn't amount to hijacking the list off
> topic.

Well, so long as we stick to HL stories to provide examples...

Jane
--

======================================================
Jane Carnall  ===  hj.carnall@...
======================================================
"I hadn't thought you were ready to drop-kick Jedi
Masters yet, but clearly I've trained you well."
======================================================

Lorie945@... wrote:

> Is a "hook" necessary for a fan audience?  What do the writers on list
> think?

I figure I've got about three or four paragraphs to draw a reader in to want
to know more.  That's what I usually give an unknown author.  There are
certain writers who could write laundry lists and I will read every word,
but I do not assume I fall into that category with anyone.

Are the characters doing something interesting or entertaining, different or
shocking or....whatever?  Is it sufficiently well written that I can tell
the author gave a lot of thought and effort to what she wrote?

So in that respect, the answer is "yes."  The story has to have a hook.
Does it have to be a gimmick, like:

Methos gasped as he realized that the space/time continuum had suddenly
shifted and he had been transported to the deck of the Lusitania just as the
torpedo....

No.  The hook can simply be a wonderfully evocative description of a place
or a feeling.  But whatever it is, those first few paragraphs have to give
me a reason to want to read the rest of the story.

MacGeorge

Rachael Sabotini wrote:

> on 10/25/00 12:43 PM, kageorge@... at kageorge@... wrote:
>
> > All in all, this story seemed like what the author originally described in
> > her introduction -- a very (*very*) long PWP.
>
> Just a sidebar to everything here, because it's become a pet peeve.  A PWP
> is a story whose main purpose is to get the reader aroused.  my belief is
> that the story is supposed to be so hot, that the reader, when done, will
> spend some time blinking and sighing, and when asked what the story was
> about, 'what was the plot?', the reader responds with 'Plot?  What Plot?' as
> in they were so titillated that they didn't notice what the story was about.
>
> So, to me, this story was very ambitious and had a lot of plot (plot being a
> series of events within a story.) The pacing, though, did drag at times, but
> that doesn't mean it was a PWP.
>
> --rache, in categorization mode again

I overstated the case, no doubt.  But I felt that the author did, indeed, start
out with a notion of a PWP (which she admits), but it grew into a much longer
story, with the sex an absolutely central point around which the rest of the
story was built.

I concede that this story did not end up being a PWP, but the evidence is
certainly there that it began with that in mind.

MacG

on 10/25/00 12:43 PM, kageorge@... at kageorge@... wrote:

> All in all, this story seemed like what the author originally described in
> her introduction -- a very (*very*) long PWP.

Just a sidebar to everything here, because it's become a pet peeve.  A PWP
is a story whose main purpose is to get the reader aroused.  my belief is
that the story is supposed to be so hot, that the reader, when done, will
spend some time blinking and sighing, and when asked what the story was
about, 'what was the plot?', the reader responds with 'Plot?  What Plot?' as
in they were so titillated that they didn't notice what the story was about.

So, to me, this story was very ambitious and had a lot of plot (plot being a
series of events within a story.) The pacing, though, did drag at times, but
that doesn't mean it was a PWP.

--rache, in categorization mode again

At 12:17 PM 10/25/00 , Lorie wrote:
>Is a "hook" necessary for a fan audience?

IMO...okay, I'm going to be schizo here, and answer from both sides of the
fence.

As a reader, yes, a hook is necessary.  Because while I know the
characters, while the summary (if there is one) gives me some clue as to
what the story's about, I need *something* that makes me want to read more,
that says to me, "You want to read *this* story; you don't want to go off
and play Solitaire."  Okay, so usually Solitaire isn't my only non-fic
choice...but there are a *lot* of stories out there, perhaps more than I
could read even if I didn't have a full-time job, if my sole existence were
looking for and reading fic.  Add to that the fact that I have limited time
(alas), that I can't read every available fic, and I end up having to make
choices.

Reading a fic is a gamble.  The pay-off is being entertained, is being
moved, is getting the urge to fall down and worship the author's feet.  I
can't truly know the answer until I read the full thing, but there are
clues.  If it's a writer I know I like, I'm more likely to read on because
I'm more likely to enjoy the fic.  If it's a writer I know is bad, a writer
who always turns out cliched plots and bad characterization, I'm less
likely to read on.  If the writing just reaches out and grabs me and holds
tightly to my attention, I'm more likely to read on, because the fic will
probably keep going like that.  If there are numerous spelling,
grammatical, or formatting errors in the fic, I'm less likely to read on,
because the fic will probably keep going like that, and it takes away from
my enjoyment of the fic.

There's no guarantee that a hookless beginning means that the story won't,
in the end, satisfy what I need.  In reality, all it means is that there
isn't a hook at the beginning; there is no other meaning.  (There is no
spoon.  [Sorry.])  But it adds another factor to the gamble.  There is a
chance that, if the beginning fails to captivate me, the rest of the story
will match that failure.  And it's possible that, by following my wandering
attention away from a fic, I'll lose the experience of reading, say, the
perfectest scene possible.  But in many ways, it's better to risk that,
than to read everything in the faint hope that it will be
stunning.  (Though there are a few authors that I will read every available
work of, hook or no hook.)

As a writer...I'm more torn.  I want something that will pull readers in,
that will make them want to read more; on the other hand, there's something
nice about building, crafting, weaving in the plot points, that you don't
really get if you come in in the middle.  It depends on what effect I'm
trying to acheive; some things need the building of suspense ("where are we
going?"), others need an anchor to look back from ("how did we get here?");
the latter allows hooks far, far more easily than the former.

I generally try to go by what the story requires, instead of what will get
me the most readers.  But that's no different than when I write Real (i.e.
pro-publishable) Stories.  It's kind of like a quote I saw once, which I
can't remember exactly but is something on the order of "It's easy to carve
a statue of an elephant.  All you do is take a block of marble and chip
away everything that isn't elephant."  There is a Story out there, and if I
change how the story's told, if I change whether or not there's a hook,
it's a different story.  Not drastically different, because it tells the
same events, but it is nonetheless different, just as it would be if I
wrote it in first person, or third person, or second person, or present
tense, or past tense, or future tense, or what have you; just as a statue
of an elephant changes if you carve it out of wood instead of stone.

But that's more the craft of writing than the specifics of writing for a
fan audience.  I don't think I change anything when writing for a fan
audience, at least not hook-wise.  There will be less background
information on the main characters (because in most cases I expect my
readers to have some ground knowledge of the universe I'm coming from,
whereas with original stories they don't), and there won't be as detailed
descriptions of what an Immortal is (or a Jedi or a lightsaber or a Slayer
or a Watcher or a Sentinel), but other than that, the story is crafted the
same way.

And I will go shut up now.

Isabeau

Katherine made this really interesting point that took me out of
thinking about "Tant Que Je Vive" and instead into thinking about how
writers approach fanfiction.

<<I wonder if fan writers don't count too much on the built-in
interest of the readers -- I know I struggle with beginnings --
assuming the reader is already involved, and therefore, a 'hook' isn't
needed.>>

Is a "hook" necessary for a fan audience?  What do the writers on list
think?  The readers?  Does it depend on how well-known/loved an author
is?  I read just about everything, even when punctuation is missing
and spelling/word choice is hysterical, so I'm interested in what more
selective readers than myself find appealing or necessary to continue
past the first lines of a story.

I'm interested in the critique of fanfic as a means to learn more
about writing for myself -- and the discussion here has already been
profitable.  Hope this post doesn't amount to hijacking the list off
topic.

Lorie

Well, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the other respondents
regarding this story.  The untranslated language didn't bother me, and I
found a few sentence structure problems throughout, but in general I thought
the style was pretty well done.

My problem was boredom, I'm afraid, for the following reasons:

1)  Plot.  This is a tired, overdone plot that did not include any elements
that were fresh or new.  The first section had some very nice descriptions
of the city, and of the various other religious 'sites' that Methos
recalled, but it quickly devolved into a kind of overdone travellogue that
felt more like the author was trying to impress the reader with her
knowledge of London and of various places around the world, than actually
move the story along.

2)  Pacing:  Sloooooooow.  I don't mind a slow paced story as long as it
seems to have a purpose, or sometimes if the language is particularly poetic
or lyrical, but this story had neither.

3)  Emotional Intensity:  This story rarely moved me.  There were a few nice
moments in the post-Q sex scenes, and the final scene with Duncan almost
worked, but so many scenes with Methos doing all his internal angsting just
got repetitive and tiresome, at least for me.  This goes back to pacing, at
least to my mind.  I do a lot of stories with long, complex plots, and for
my money, the reader has to have an immediate reason to keep going, some
burning question that needs an answer, some urgent curiousity about what
will happen next.  That *never* happens for me in this story.

All in all, this story seemed like what the author originally described in
her introduction -- a very (*very*) long PWP.

MacGeorge

rache said:
> I thought the use of the OC Kallista was interesting.  I remember feeling a
> lot of anxiety when she first appeared, because I wasn't clear on her
> purpose and was afraid that she might be there to play Methos' advocate or
> the yenta role.

I fretted that she might be a K'Immie. I liked her a lot for
that reason: it's so refreshing to see someone with a name
like that who doesn't do the Evil Laugh.

I wonder if TPTB meant to keep us guessing with Kassandra
(which is how it's supposed to be spelled, after all). My
husband is starting to make jokes about DunKan MacKleod
-- presumably after the Dark Kwickening. How can you trust
anyone with so many "k" sounds in his name, after all? <rolls
eyes>

Some bits of HL canon are just impossible to take seriously.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project

Warning: I'm rambling.  Very much.  <g>

>The untranslated French definitely worked for me, but I
>can think in French. I might have found too much translation
>there intrusive, in fact.

But some translations are necessary.  The Arabic (?) prayer, for example --
and she refers to "the last [sentence]", without giving a clue what said
sentence is.  The German ("sturdy with hausfraulich respectability") didn't
give me a problem, but then, German is a language I'm familiar with
<g>.  Someone without knowledge of the language would get sturdy, would get
respectability, but possibly wouldn't get the nuances of
hausfraulich.  (Then again, I don't know that there could be an easy
translation for that.)

The French did throw me off.  I don't know much French -- and I'm better
with hearing it than reading it.  I think a translation could have been
slipped easily in, at least the first place it appears.  Like, / "I know
the poem," he interrupted, remembering it now.  [Translation of lines,
possibly italicized.]  He stared at her in disbelief. /  Where it's
intersperced in the narrative...translation would have been intrusive, but
without the translation, the words meant nothing to me.

OTOH, the bit of -- Gaelic?  -- worked fine without a translation.  I don't
know what the words translate to, but I can get a general impression of
meaning.  <g>

>I personally have trouble truly enjoying this story because of
>something about the sentence structure. I keep feeling that
>there aren't enough commas, or something: the sentences
>read as stale, flat and unprofitable to me.
<snip>

I agree with the 'not enough commas' thing.  From the, like, second paragraph:

- - - -
Denbigh had been
looking after some of Methos' many investments for about eight years and
Methos had been
pleased to learn that most were performing well. He had declined the man's
offer of lunch,
but consented to a quick beer in one of the numerous drinking holes located
in the financial
centre. As the day was unexpectedly pleasant for the time of year he had
foregone a trip on
the crowded, stuffy Underground and decided to walk back to his city centre
flat a couple
of miles away, in Covent Garden. However he had not anticipated it being
quite so warm
and the effect of woollen suit, shirt, tie and overcoat was taking its toll.
- - - -

IMO, to make it feel...smoother?...it needs more commas -- after "years" in
the first sentence, after "time of year", optionally after "Underground"
(though a comma there would require "had decided"), after "However", after
"so warm".  It's a matter of cadence, I think.  I don't read stories aloud,
but I 'hear' them in my head, even the narrative, and it needs to flow, it
needs to have pauses and breaks and a shape -- and in some places, the lack
of a comma changes the meaning.  ("[MacLeod] had thrown off most of the
covers baring his magnificent torso" -- without the comma after "covers",
it literally reads that he threw off the covers-that-bared-his-torso.)

There are also places where symmetry demands a comma -- there will be a
clause, set off at the beginning by a comma, but not at the end, as in "His
horse, brave though it was had reached the end of its endurance", where the
cadence is again off, and grammar wants a matching comma after "brave
though it was".  (Although, ironically enough, there's one sentence that
feels like it has too many commas -- "It took the boy five, excruciatingly
painful, days to die." -- the commas don't really need to be there.)

The slightly sad thing is, it's a good story.  Once I've actually gotten
into it, into the relationships and stuff, it's good, it's real.  Okay, so
the dance between current and past times is a little confusing (I found
myself several times wondering what's happening when), but I like the
interactions between characters.  It's just the descriptions, and the fact
that the first part of the story would have turned me off if we weren't
discussing it here. (I feel odd discussing a story I haven't read.)

If I were beta-reading this story, I'd have more nitpicks, but since I'm
not, I shan't bore you with them.  <g>  (Although I have a gut reaction
against calling Joe "the younger man".  Yes, technically, Joe is a hell of
a lot younger than Methos, but the description just doesn't fit... and
where the hell were Methos and Isat, that they could fight almost-naked
without drawing attention?

I like some of the details in the story -- like that there is some pottery
of his in the British Museum, that Methos is "a devout believer in avoiding
dying more often than he had to", the "So, *that's* why you came round. You
want to
drink all my beer." line.  But some places, it feels like there's too much
information, so that the reader is overwhelmed with data that doesn't all
tie together.  (And then there's the place where Methos bows twice in a
row, and I had this image of a Methos-shaped version of one of those
bobbing water birds...)

I was horribly amused by one sentence, though -- "Methos stared bleakly
down at her stinking corpse--an effect of the plague" -- I know that what
was (probably) meant was that the stench was an effect of the plague, but
my first thought was, "Yes, corpses are often an effect of a pretty much
incurable plague..."  Heh.

Isabeau

On 25 Oct 2000, at 4:56, Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:

> The untranslated French definitely worked for me, but I
> can think in French. I might have found too much translation
> there intrusive, in fact. It's a tricky issue in HL because one
> can assume that every Immie who's not fresh-minted is
> polylingual. I've wondered why stories assume (or don't deny)
> that Duncan usually speaks English to Methos or Fitz, both of
> whom must be very fluent in French.

I kind of liked the untranslated bits, even for the languages I don't
know at all.  (Not that I know French in any real sense, but I can
usually make a stab at guessing the general drift of something if I
mess around with cognates and word-roots and the like.)  Just about
everything had enough explanation given in context that the
necessary information came through.

What I wonder about sometimes, when I'm in a speculative mood, is
just what language or languages Methos actually thinks in when he's
alone.  Modern French?  Ancient Akkadian?  Or does he jump from
language to language depending upon what he's thinking about?
With MacLeod it's fairly easy to come up with likely answers -- I'd
guess Scots Gaelic on the deepest layer, with the next layer up being
either French or English (my bet would be on French, given the
historical alliance between France and Scotland), and the third layer
being whichever of those two languages he didn't learn first, and
only after that all the other assorted languages he's had to pick up
on his travels -- but Methos is a regular philologist's nightmare.  (Or
dream, maybe.  The man is probably the only remaining speaker of
Proto-Indo-Hittite As A Second Language.)

Debra
---
Debra Doyle
http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald

On 25 Oct 2000, at 7:04, Rachael Sabotini wrote:

> All in all, though, I thought that the story really didn't kick into gear
> until we get to the Duncan/Methos part of the story.  At that point, Methos
> stopped thinking about stuff and started feeling -- and I'm good with
> feelings.  I didn't noticed the exposition fragments so much once I
> connected to that part of the story; I was hooked and it carried me through
> to the end.

Possibly the story's scenes could have been ordered more effectively,
with a bit more of the Duncan stuff coming earlier, to pique interest.
The story's present time is only a few days in London, and those few
days occur very close to the resolution of the plot; most of the
_action_ of the plot, on the other hand, takes place in the story's past
and is told in a series of prolonged flashbacks.  So once you've
already abandoned straight linear chronology, you might as well use
the resulting freedom to maximum effect.

> Over all, I enjoyed it. And I give it high marks for ambition and
> depth, as well as for taking the time to see all the characters as
> human.  I think that's important.

Oh, definitely.   I don't think this is a failed story at all; it's a very
good story with some interestingly discussable imperfections.  (I
mean, what can you say about a perfect story, other than "Oh, wow"
or "Hey, look, everybody, this is how it's done"?)

Debra
---
Debra Doyle
http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald

On 25 Oct 2000, at 4:19, Katharine Scarritt wrote:

> In this case, the first page of the story, at least, is overloaded
> with irrelevant detail, most of it written in past perfect.  While
> everything seems rendered well enough, I've been given no reason to
> care about anything she's describing; I'm not curious, surprised or
> diverted enough to want to keep reading and see what all this set up
> is for.   I would say she needs to pick one or two items and connect
> them emotionally to the character, rather than trying to cram all the
> backstory/exposition in right away.

The language of the story does seem to take a while to rev up to its
proper cruising speed.  About halfway through the first part it finds
a steady enough rythm that I'm not uncomfortable with it, but I do
think that the whole introductory section could have been fairly
stringently edited for pace.  Getting rid of the past perfect -- or at
least, cutting down heavily on its use -- would have been a good start.

I do think, though, that even in its ideal form the pacing of the story
would probably be rather more reflective than breakneck, just
because of the general theme and atmosphere.

Debra
---
Debra Doyle
http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald

I enjoyed this story, but it has been quite a while since I read it. I know
I felt two ways about the description: I liked the detail form a scene
setting position and yet I felt that it was too much, too soon.  If it would
have been me, I probably would have cut a bunch of it, so that the reader
could get into the story more quickly.

I thought the use of the OC Kallista was interesting.  I remember feeling a
lot of anxiety when she first appeared, because I wasn't clear on her
purpose and was afraid that she might be there to play Methos' advocate or
the yenta role.  I was pleasantly surprised to find out that she developed
into her own person, and the comparison/contrast of her relationship with
her lover and Methos' relationship with Mac was interesting to me.  I liked
that bit.

All in all, though, I thought that the story really didn't kick into gear
until we get to the Duncan/Methos part of the story.  At that point, Methos
stopped thinking about stuff and started feeling -- and I'm good with
feelings.  I didn't noticed the exposition fragments so much once I
connected to that part of the story; I was hooked and it carried me through
to the end.

Over all, I enjoyed it. And I give it high marks for ambition and depth, as
well as for taking the time to see all the characters as human.  I think
that's important.

-rache
--
rachael sabotini
http://mediafans.org/rachael

"Drunkard, poacher, lecher, gambler -- now that's a real Boy Scout."

--On Wednesday, October 25, 2000, 4:56 AM -0400 Mary Ellen Curtin
<mecurtin@...> wrote:r

> I personally have trouble truly enjoying this story because of
> something about the sentence structure. I keep feeling that
> there aren't enough commas, or something: the sentences
> read as stale, flat and unprofitable to me. For instance, here
> (randomly chosen bit from the beginning):

I suspect that there's also misuse of semicolons in the story; I kept
feeling like certain commas shouldn't be commas, but eventually I thought
it might be my screen (I was reading on my laptop at home).

Other than that, I liked the style, perhaps because it lent itself well to
sense-of-place.

--laura

---
laura jacquez valentine --- http://www.dementia.org/~jacquez/
tha eurhythmic king of nowhere -- jacquez+@...
Why it is that Xavier's team has impressive skills, while Magneto's team
has specialties that would prove invaluable to a stripper? --Roger Ebert

Continuing from last post.  As I read on, I find an example of her
description that works much better, neatly moving Methos along, giving
information about the place & history, implying his knowledge, as well
as a sense of his response to what he sees:

~~~
He cut through a narrow alley, walking past a small garden as he did
so and crossed over the wide boulevard that was Queen Victoria Street,
to arrive on Cannon Street. St Paul's Cathedral loomed above him, its
distinctive great-domed profile illuminating the City skyline. On an
impulse he walked down the road known as St Paul’s Churchyard. He
passed buildings of various styles. Some dated from the eighteenth and
nineteenth centuries, in accordance with the Square Mile's history as
a financial centre. Others were more modern; their sleek windows
reflected blankly the cloudless sky. The Cathedral's graceful form was
to the right side of him as he sauntered past the information booth
and crossed the road to join the tourists milling around on the steps
framing the entrance to Christopher Wren's masterpiece.
~~~
It also has much more varied sentence length and rhythm.

Then we move on into more nicely written but seemingly endless
descriptions of various cathedrals and other holy places, and still no
clue *why* Methos is thinking all this... finally a hint that he's
trying to avoid thinking about Duncan... and then immediately plunge
back into long chunks of description.

And throughout the rest of the story as well.  Here and there a nice
insight, good dialogue, great observation ... and back into exposition
which feels emotionally disconnected.  Finally, as the story
approaches the end, it starts to feel much more intimate to me, for
lack of better word.  I doubt that if I had run into the story on an
archive though, that I would have ever made it that far.

I appreciate the ambition of the story, to give a true sense of the
scope of Methos' past (and possibly in that context to show how
unusual Duncan is) and I wish the all the background material had been
more emotionally interwoven with the relationship.

The thing is, I like information and well-written exposition.  I've
usually enjoyed Sylvia Volk's stuff, even though she describes herself
as "reading non-fiction, spitting out fiction."  (or something like
that).

Anyway.  Maybe I'm lacking patience today.

Katharine





That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.

Hello, all & sundry -- glad to see this list!

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 04:56:53 -0400, "Mary Ellen Curtin"
<mecurtin@...> wrote:

>I personally have trouble truly enjoying this story because of
>something about the sentence structure. I keep feeling that
>there aren't enough commas, or something: the sentences

There are several problems with all this, enough that I stopped
reading after six paragraphs, and without the reference here, would
not go back to it.

One of the most frustrating things for me when commenting on or
editing a story by a writer who has good command of language,
reasonable technical ability with a story, and a good idea is that
when something goes wrong, it's much harder to say where or why.

In this case, the first page of the story, at least, is overloaded
with irrelevant detail, most of it written in past perfect.  While
everything seems rendered well enough, I've been given no reason to
care about anything she's describing; I'm not curious, surprised or
diverted enough to want to keep reading and see what all this set up
is for.   I would say she needs to pick one or two items and connect
them emotionally to the character, rather than trying to cram all the
backstory/exposition in right away.

I wonder if fan writers don't count too much on the built-in interest
of the readers -- I know I struggle with beginnings -- assuming the
reader is already involved, and therefore, a 'hook' isn't needed.

Back to finish reading,
Katharine


"Do not vex the animals."
San Diego Zoo

Laura wrote:
> The one thing that I *didn't* like about the story was that the
> author made almost no effort to work translations of the non-English
> into the narrative, instead reserving them for the notes at the end.
> Because I know French, I was able to follow the meaning of the poem
> (which isn't in modern French, but it's close enough), but I'm
> wondering how people felt who didn't know French going in.

The untranslated French definitely worked for me, but I
can think in French. I might have found too much translation
there intrusive, in fact. It's a tricky issue in HL because one
can assume that every Immie who's not fresh-minted is
polylingual. I've wondered why stories assume (or don't deny)
that Duncan usually speaks English to Methos or Fitz, both of
whom must be very fluent in French. In e.g. the Fitz flashbacks
in "Till Death" I have assumed that everyone is speaking French;
do others think otherwise?

I personally have trouble truly enjoying this story because of
something about the sentence structure. I keep feeling that
there aren't enough commas, or something: the sentences
read as stale, flat and unprofitable to me. For instance, here
(randomly chosen bit from the beginning):
- - - -
He walked slowly along Upper Thames Street, a road that shadowed the banks of
the
river along the south side of the City. He breathed shallowly to avoid inhaling
more
than necessary of the traffic fumes exuded by the four lanes of traffic backed
up to
and from the Blackfriars Tunnel. The cars' polluting effects could be seen in
the
haze at the edge of sight, misting slightly the otherwise clear blue sky. He had
been
contemplating hailing a taxi but seeing the traffic decided against it.
- - - -

I don't know what the real root of my dissatisfaction with
this style might be. It's an itchy feeling, almost, but one
I can't pin down.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project

I just finished reading this one (I'm working my way through
recommendations pages at the moment), which is available at
http://www.tangledweb.demon.co.uk/tantive1.htm for those who haven't
seen it.

I liked it for a number of reasons, not in the least the not-
insignificant amount of research that the author appears to have put
into it.  (I don't know that I agree that Methos would drink bitter,
but that's probably the dunkle drinker in me.)

The one thing that I *didn't* like about the story was that the
author made almost no effort to work translations of the non-English
into the narrative, instead reserving them for the notes at the end.
Because I know French, I was able to follow the meaning of the poem
(which isn't in modern French, but it's close enough), but I'm
wondering how people felt who didn't know French going in.

The other instances were brief enough that even though I didn't know
the various languages, they didn't really bother me, but this one was
central enough to the story that I found it annoying--even knowing
the language enough to translate.  The rhetor that lurks within my
soul started grumbling about ineffective argument, and the not-so-
lurking interface designer and technical writer started having a loud
discussion about audience.  (Having to shut up the more obnoxious
parts of my personality while reading is not one of my favorite
activities.)

Aside from that quibble, I thought that the story was well-written,
well-plotted, decently characterized, with engaging original
characters that the author carefully gave interesting, historically-
based backgrounds to.

Anyone else have anything to say about this one?  I'd like to discuss
it further.


--laura

<tap tap>

<tap tap>

<whoosht>

Hey Laura, is this thing turned--<SCREEEEEEEEEEEEE>

eek. Uh, hello, and welcome to CriticalEdge. We've invited you
here to have Free and Frank Exchanges of Views about Highlander
fan fiction and canon. Talk about stories you like, stories you
don't like, episodes ditto. Ask research questions, admire the
locals, announce magna opera, have the beverage of your choice.

A few general guidelines:

1. Read Macedon & Peg's essays, "Mannerly Art of Disagreement"
and Peg's "Mannerly Art of Critique", at:
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/disagree.txt and
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/critique.txt .

2. In arguments, favor IDIC over TCOBO, but that's no reason not
to say what you really mean.

3. Laura & I are rather opinionated (no!), but generally speaking
we love it when people disagree with us clearly & logically. Just
because one of us says it doesn't mean it's list policy.

4. Nonetheless -- we don't care for Keeperships. And there's no
need for ObCriticalEdge posts, neither.

I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard, so I'll see you-all in the
morning. You don't have to play nicely as long as you sweep up the
broken glass when you're done and leave a nice tip for Joe to split
with the staff.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project