Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Loreena McKennit (who sang Bonny Portmore in Highlander 3) will be featured
on Public TV stations in the U.S. in March as part of the Great Performances
series.

www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/mckennitt/

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

You know, I was so convinced that someone was going to post this here that I
didn't bother until I checked in & didn't see a post.  :)

Killa's got an automated archive going for this fandom, which has sadly been
lacking one for-freakin'-EVER.  Hooray for Killa!

See her lj post about it here:
http://killabeez.livejournal.com/196491.html
and visit the archive itself here:
http://hlfiction.net/

I'll be uploading my stories once I get around to checking formats and so on
and so forth.  And get done getting my butt kicked in rugby tomorrow.  And
clean my house.  But I'm going to do it!  I am!

--laura

--
"LIBERTE! EGALITE! NON-METADISCUSSE!" -- Basingstoke


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Origins
by MacGeorge

Chapter Eight

Joe Wicasa's unoccupied trailer was small, smelled musty and stale, and
showed signs of age and wear, but the twin mattress was surprisingly
comfortable when Mac bounced on it a little.  He liked his beds hard
anyway, and it wasn't like he had any expectation of needing larger
accommodation.  The notion of trying to bring some lovely young thing
'home' to this space made him smile, even as it occurred to him that it
had been a long time since he'd even had a morning hard-on, much less
any real sense of sexual need or desire. He'd have to think about that
little tidbit of realization.

"It's not much," Wicasa admitted a little sheepishly, breaking in on his
thoughts.  "But it's free, and if you don't want to try to cook in here
you can take any meals you want at the diner and charge anything but
booze to my tab, just so long as it stays within reasonable bounds. My
son lived here for awhile until he moved to Phoenix, but Maria cleaned
it up real good when he left, although you might look out for a few
critters that decided to move in while we weren't lookin'."

Mac smiled at him.  "It's fine."  And it was.  It was a completely
anonymous place where he could settle for a little while, do some work
he enjoyed at a pace that suited him, and to explore the desert that
seemed to call him with all its vast expanse of wild and sacred spaces.
Mac looked up meeting Joe's eyes in a hard, direct look.  "But you don't
know a damned thing about me or if I can repair a can opener, much less
a 60-year-old truck.  I might be a thief or a murderer on the run from
the police."

"I'm a pretty good judge of character," Joe said in a rather formal
tone.  "And what's to steal?" he waved his hand at their surroundings.
"And if you bring harm or heartache to anyone I care about, it will be
dealt with."  He shrugged eloquently.  "Hehanyela owihanke."

  "That is all?" Mac translated, and raised an eyebrow. "You plan to kill
me or just banish me?"

Joe's eyes narrowed and he cocked his head.  "You know the language?"

"I know some Lakota, and there are a lot of similarities," Mac answered
with a dismissive shrug, a little uncomfortable that he had
inadvertently revealed that piece of his past.

"See?" he chuckled.  "I knew you were an Indian at heart.  What was it,
a beautiful woman?"

"Very beautiful," Mac answered softly.  "But it was a long time ago."

Joe just looked at him for a moment, "But it's never long enough, is
it?" he commented softly, and turned away, moving out the door and
stiffly down the narrow metal steps to the dusty path that led from the
trailer to the back of his store.

"Joe?" Mac called, making him stop and turn.  "I... Thanks.  I kind of
needed a place to just stop and think for awhile."

A gentle smile warmed the dark, weathered face.  "I figured that.  And,
by the way, my friends call me Wick."

"Then thank you... Wick."

He settled in, taking his time about getting the truck hauled to a clear
space behind the trading post and within 100 feet of his trailer where
he could work on it, erecting a canopy to block the sun and what little
rain might fall.  The winter chill made it quite nippy in the early
morning and late evening, but he was inured to the cold from long
experience and was perfectly content leaning deep into the engine, or
lying on a tarp underneath the old truck for hours at a time - now up on
blocks, slowly inspecting and pulling apart the various dilapidated
gears, the stripped wiring, the oil-and-dirt-clogged engine parts.  He
also spent hours on Wick's laptop in his office at the trading post,
researching various replacement parts and bidding on some of the bigger
pieces.

Along the way, he helped in the store at the cash register from time to
time, gradually learning the names and faces of the locals, and lending
a hand in the garage when some tourist's van mysteriously stopped
working when they stopped for gas.  Unfortunately, modern cars were so
jazzed up with computerized parts that he felt really behind the times
and realized he was going to have to do some serious self-education in
order to sustain a current workman's persona - not that there were that
many people who knew how to repair modern cars, but it was a matter of
both pride and survival.  It was too easy to get stuck in the past, to
believe that the old ways were somehow better.  But while knowing how to
fly a World War II biplane or being an expert on how fix an antique
clock was a fun way to impress a few people, it wasn't going to help him
survive in today's world.

And the urge to meditate?  It came mostly in the very early morning or
evening, just as the sun hovered on the horizon and he was usually
running along a path towards the high bluff north of town.  The trek
covered about two miles on a dusty road carved by various vehicles
through the hard-packed desert sand, then narrowed to another couple of
miles of path marked by various animal prints, but mostly wild burros,
then ended rather abruptly at a rock outcropping blocking what was
probably a steep drop into a deep valley carved by some ancient
tributary of the Colorado and occasionally deepened by the fast floods
of sudden spring rains.

He usually stopped and turned around there, pausing to watch the sun's
lengthening rays turn the massive red stone mesas into orange-gold
pillars stabbing into the sky, which by then was a magnificent display
of all the infinite hues of blue, from a sweet pale azure at one
horizon, to a stunning almost-black in other, all splashed with the
remnant sparkle of stars.  The urge to kneel down, close his eyes and
soak in the desert sounds, the smells, the feel of the dry, crisp desert
air, to lose his sense of self in that infinite vastness, was intense.
But the very notion that what he had done might have caused some kind of
mini-gathering - no, he refused to even consider the possibility.  No
one was that important in their genocidal Game.  But he also wasn't
willing to take the chance, so each time he made a choice - not today.
Not right now.  And he turned and began his long run back.

~~~~~~~

Joe Dawson listened in stunned silence as Methos spun a tale that he
wasn't at all sure he believed.  It was utterly unexpected, but then how
could any story that purported to explain the mystery of Immortals be
expected at all, much less make any real sense?

"So, let me get this straight," he sighed into a long silence following
Methos' fantastic tale, "You guys were really left by the fairies?"

Methos, who had been diligently studying the intricate patterns and
scars on the battered wooden arms of the office chair, looked up and his
mouth twisted in something that might be interpreted as a smile by
someone who didn't know him.  "In a manner of speaking," he responded.
"The Irish called what they perceived as 'fairy mounds' sidhe.  But the
Sidhe, or the Tuatha de Danann, as they were sometimes called, were the
basis of legend and myth all over the ancient world for millennia, even
before they first tried sending their offspring across what they call
the Gate, but which is some kind of dimensional divide that manifests
itself at particular points around the world.  They got a perverse
pleasure from being worshiped and made sure they were seen as amazing,
mysterious, all-powerful and wise even when they had little or no direct
influence on this world.  So, yes, they are the Celtic culture's Danae,
the Greek's Zeus and Hera, the Nordic Odin and Freya, and so on and so
on," he leaned back, crossing his arms.  "Humans wanted gods, and the
Sidhe wanted to be worshiped.  You served as the Sidhe's intellectual
playthings for thousands of years, just for entertainment and to stroke
their remarkable egos.  But then when their sun started to get unstable
and their perfect world began to decay, their forests to die, their air
to become unbreathable, suddenly this green, growing world became more
than a form of entertainment for a civilization bored with its own
existence. It became an object of envy and greed.  They never embraced
technology the way humans have, and while some few hundred of them
managed to get off the planet, the whole notion of spending hundreds, or
even thousands, of years in space looking for a suitable place to
colonize was an anathema to most.  No, their strengths were the strength
of mind, of will, of intricate genetic manipulation of biological
processes to arrange their world according to what they wanted.  But
they couldn't control their deteriorating sun, and they set out to find
a way to do more than just watch our world from across the Gate.  They
wanted it.  They wanted it all."

"But you weren't the first they sent across?"

Methos chuckled and shook his head.  "By no means.  First, they
attempted to make genetic changes to human embryos, trying to effect
things at sub-microscopic level across the barrier.  That got ugly.  A
few actually tried crossing the barrier themselves, and that was even
uglier.  It went on for a thousand years or so until they realized the
barrier was getting more and more difficult to cross with the
geomagnetic changes caused by their deteriorating sun.  But they learned
from their mistakes, and found that there were certain locations and
certain times of year where the combination of influences made the Gate
barrier thinner, but even then, a fully mature Sidhe simply could not
cross.  For them to actually breach the barrier would take something
extraordinary, some perfectly timed massive release of specific energies."

"So instead of coming themselves, they've spent the last five thousand
years sending their genetically engineered progeny through?" Joe asked.
"Man, talk about delayed gratification!"

"Oh, it's been a lot more than five thousand years. Time has a different
meaning for the Sidhe," Methos sighed.  "I barely remember much of my
life before they sent me across, but I know I was considered a very
young child, although I was probably about 20 or 30 years old in human
terms.  Even so, it took the entire caresh, working together on one of
the key astrological dates, a solstice of some kind probably, to get me
through.  And it killed me."  He shook his head and shuddered.  "Boy did
it ever.  I only remember vague impressions, but I do know it was like
having my flesh ripped off my bones, my mind burned from my brain from
the inside, and then being crushed to death.  It must've taken years for
me to function normally, leaving me to die repeatedly from exposure,
starvation and whatever predators were dominating the area at the time,
human or animal.  It was only luck that allowed me to get through that
period with my head intact, and I was one of very few who did.  Almost
all the others sent through were infants.  It doesn't kill the infants,
evidently, because they haven't developed enough innate quickening
energy yet to be blocked at the threshold of the Gate, and when found by
humans, babies are more likely to be nurtured than killed."

"And it was always on holy ground?" Joe asked, then shook his head.  "No
wonder no one could figure out where the babies came from.  They just
magically appeared where any woman might abandon an unwanted child."

"Oh, the Sidhe don't consider it holy ground," Methos chuckled.  "Far
from it.  It's just that humans have an instinctive sensitivity to the
earth's energy flows, and frequently build temples and churches and such
where the flows are strongest.  The Stonehenge circle, the Temple of
Delphi, the site of the Pyramids, the ancient temples in South America.
They weren't put where they were by random chance.  Some folks call them
a conjunction of ley lines, but however you want to describe it, holy
ground has a complex, physical meaning to the Sidhe, and there's nothing
actually holy about it except that it becomes a conductor of energies
across the Gate to one degree or another."

"And that's where the rule about no fighting on holy ground comes from?"

"That's where a lot of the so-called rules come from.  Any release of
Quickening energy at those spots is disruptive and dangerous to both
worlds, and the whole point was that the Sidhe wanted to control it, to
wait for the exact time and place and participants they felt were required."

"Required for what?"

Methos' mouth quirked up on one corner as he met Joe's eyes, and he
nodded.  "They want to come here, of course.  That's why they created
us, that's why they sent us, that's why we play the Game."

~~~~~~~

Ce'dane had nothing compelling to do.  But then, he hadn't had anything
really interesting or important to do in long, long ages.  He had
finally healed after long, agonizing periods of semi-lucidity.
Gradually he had come back to himself, to his awareness of the dun, to
the semi-darkness, the sameness, the mind-numbing sameness.

He supposed he could go down to the agricultural levels and see if he
could think of anything new or different to grow, but he'd done that
countless times and the very idea bored him.

He could go upward and work on the barriers and filters that protected
them from the heat, radiation and toxins of their dying world, but he
hardly cared anymore.  There was nothing new, nothing different, nothing
challenging to his mind or his heart.  So, he lay on his shelf of geesta
and let the fan pass him by, sinking as deeply as he could into a state
of dreaming, reliving the vibrant, interesting years when he was
consumed with the design, building and maintenance of a home that was
formed from the very essence of Dunal and its people.  He could have
sunk all the way into ka'queha, but that required concentration and
effort, and he had none to give.  It was as though he had left something
vital behind on his trip to the surface, where his flesh had been
literally flayed from his bones, so he just floated in his self-created
nothingness.

"I'm almost ready to contact him again," Thalia said conversationally.
Dane, of course, did not respond.  He hadn't responded for a long time
now, even after his body had finally recovered from its horrifying
injuries.  The g'nagal had tended him, nurtured him, helped him through
the agony of exposed nerves and reformulating organs, but while Ce'dane
of the Mountains had physically recovered, he had never truly returned
from the surface.  His body was thin and pale under the soft,
translucent fabric covering him, his white flesh almost iridescent in
the gentle glow of the ptal'ne, the ferns he himself had so brilliantly
designed to provide just the desired amount of light based on the type
of movement of the masters who had made them.  His hair was just now
beginning to grow back in soft brown, wispy tendrils, and the long lines
of his skull, his close-set, angular ears, his wide, tilted eyes, all
stood out in stark, unrelieved plainness.  He was not considered
physically beautiful, although when his eyes were open, his face was
arresting in the intensity and intelligence of his expression, and
Thalia missed seeing that more than she could have said.

"I think perhaps we all needed a respite from ka'queha.  I sense he has
tried to distance himself from us, though, and for once time is not our
ally."  Thalia laid a long-fingered hand on the slight, elongated body
she had known since long before their sun had begun to die.  "I need
you, Dane," she whispered.  "You are the only one who truly understands
or cares about the cost of what we are trying to do.  To them.  And to
us.  The others are pressuring me to act now, with the next alignment,
but I'm not sure he is ready.  I'm not sure we are ready."  She gently
took his hand in her own.  "I'm not sure we will ever be ready."

~~~~~~~

"You're being awfully quiet," Methos commented after a long silence. "I
figured you'd either laugh me out of the room or be bursting with
questions."

Joe looked up, studying this... alien.  For suddenly the hard, sharp
planes of that familiar face seemed otherworldly, the bones a little too
long of arm and leg and hand to be quite natural, the expression too
intent to be entirely human. Joe swallowed hard and leaned forward,
taking a deep breath.  "Why," he asked softly, but then had to take
another breath before he could continue.  "Why did they send you over as
an adult, but the rest as infants?"

"Ahhh," Methos replied.  "You do tend to get to the heart of things,
don't you, Joe Dawson?  You always had that knack."

"Answer the question, Methos."

"Well, by their terms, I was an infant."

"You know what I mean!" Joe growled impatiently.

Methos pushed himself out of his chair and went to the dusty,
dirt-streaked window that looked out onto the alley behind the bar,
leaning heavily on the windowsill.  "I wasn't the first, or the last,
just the only one who has survived." Methos turned and looked at him
with a knowing smile.  "I'm very good at that, you know."  He turned
back to the window, his eyes losing focus as he told his story.  "The
handful of us actually born on Dunal spent all our comparatively short
lives there in training for the transition.  We were their good
soldiers, the ones who were supposed to make sure everything happened as
it was supposed to."

"What's that supposed to mean?"

Methos turned to him, pinning him with a hard, angry gaze.  "What the
hell do you think it means, Dawson?  We were sent here to start the
Game, to promulgate the Rules, and if it all went as planned, to open
the Gate when the time came."

"And exactly how was that supposed to happen?"

Methos' lips thinned, then curled into a snarl. "Let's just say humans
weren't the first to invent the concept of cannon fodder."  He turned
away from the window and snatched up his coat.  "In any case, it took me
awhile, but eventually I rebelled, decided I wasn't going to be their
good little soldier anymore, that my sole purpose was to survive - not
for them.  For ME!  That was what you might call my angry adolescence."
He looked up, meeting Joe's eyes once again.  "So they sent others,
designing them with more specific characteristics, hoping they would do
what I refused to.  But by then, they didn't have the option of sending
even half-grown children across, so they only sent the babies.  Babies
born and bred to have special talents."

"The Kurgan!" Joe breathed in sudden realization.

Methos laughed bitterly.  "You are too smart for your own good, Dawson."

"But when he fought Connor, yeah, it was a hell of a Quickening, but I
didn't hear any reports of aliens suddenly appearing," Joe said in
puzzlement.

"Like I say, for a long time, I've been the only one with all the facts
about when and where and how things were supposed to happen, and they
gave up on me doing their bidding a long, long time ago.  I assume they
were busy trying to manipulate the Kurgan when Connor MacLeod took
things into his own hands and spoiled their carefully laid plans.  Even
so, it was a close call.  I've heard some stories of that Quickening
that make me think some of the Sidhe almost broke through."

"Then what the hell does MacLeod and his meditation obsession have to do
with all this?" Joe finally insisted.

"They learned," Methos said softly.  "Over time their progeny became
more fully human, and the traits that allowed them to be manipulated
across the gate more subtle.  Think about it, Joe. Mac is an amazing
fighter, almost surreal in his ability to overcome any opponent.   But
he's also always had a fey side, easily reached even by a neophyte
psychic amateur like John Garrick, much less Cassandra or her stalker,
Kantos.  And his almost pathological need to sacrifice himself for
others isn't just because of the way he was raised, Joe."

"But you can't really pre-determine that kind of thing..."

"No, Joe.  Humans can't.  At least not yet.  But the Sidhe can.  You
wanted to know why I don't tell Mac what I know?" he asked with a
sneer.  "What the hell do you think MacLeod would do if he found out he
had the power to save an entire race of ancient beings from
annihilation, including his own parents?  That it was what he had been
destined to do since birth; why he was given the physical and emotional
strength to survive over and over again against impossible odds.  Easy
choice, you'd think.  Right up his alley."  Methos' long fingers wrapped
tightly around the top of the chair, his knuckles shinning whitely in
the semi-darkness and he leaned forward with a tight, conspiratorial
smile.  "There's only one small catch, Joe," he added softly.  "Either
he has to die in the process, or I do!"

Methos turned, yanked opened the door and disappeared, leaving Joe
wondering if he'd taken all the oxygen with him.

~~~~~~~

to be continued....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Origins
by MacGeorge

All available chapters and a dictionary of terms at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/wip.html

The saga continues.
This is a WIP.
Rating:  Currently PG, but no guarantees about the future.
Summary:  The title is a clue.
Disclaimers:  Characters aren't mine, but I have an inkling that
whatever they come up with in "The Source", mine is better. <g>

Acknowledgement:  Thanks to esjay for valiant beta duty.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
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Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
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are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
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In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
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Other Information:

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1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
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The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Thanks, Melina.  I am sure my brains were oozing out my ears when I
posted; I've read a lot of the stuff in your links file.

Maybe I should NOT have that second glass of wine....

--laura

On 6/24/06, Melina9999 <melina123@...> wrote:
> --- In CriticalEdge@yahoogroups.com, "jacquez45" <jacquez@...> wrote:
>
> > Anyone have good leads on het stuff?  I know of a few Methos/Amanda
> pieces but
> > there's got to be some good Duncan/Tessa or Duncan/Amanda out there
> that I'm
> > forgetting...
>
> I have some links for HL gen bookmarked here:
> http://del.icio.us/melina123/highlander%2Bgen
>
> There are quite a few writers who write both gen (incl. het) and
> slash, so be sure look at the notes for individual stories.
>
> Killa also recs gen/het fairly regularly:
> http://seacouver.slashcity.net/killa/linkpage2a.html
>
> Hope that helps
> Melina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
"LIBERTE! EGALITE! NON-METADISCUSSE!" -- Basingstoke

--- In CriticalEdge@yahoogroups.com, "jacquez45" <jacquez@...> wrote:

> Anyone have good leads on het stuff?  I know of a few Methos/Amanda
pieces but
> there's got to be some good Duncan/Tessa or Duncan/Amanda out there
that I'm
> forgetting...

I have some links for HL gen bookmarked here:
http://del.icio.us/melina123/highlander%2Bgen

There are quite a few writers who write both gen (incl. het) and
slash, so be sure look at the notes for individual stories.

Killa also recs gen/het fairly regularly:
http://seacouver.slashcity.net/killa/linkpage2a.html

Hope that helps
Melina

As a place to start for older stories in the fandom, you can check the Gen
and Het sites here:
http://wordsmiths.net/ROG-L/rog_hl_links.html

and look for Gen or for Het pairings at 7th Dimension (old fandom archive)
here:
http://www.seventh-dimension.org/

Most new stories are posted on LJ. For the past year and a half, check the
tagged monthly lists and the list for 2005 on Highlander Flash, here:
http://community.livejournal.com/hl_flash/

There are a lot of Gen and Het recs on Crack Van, here:
http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=crack_van&keyword=Highlander+\
Fanfic+Recs&filter=all

Amonitrate (amonitrate on LJ) has posted some very nice Methos/Alexa stories
this past year. I don't read Het, so I can't make any other recs.


On 6/24/06, Joan <AJP910@...> wrote:
>
>   hello, all!
> I am a newbie to this group, but i have been a Highlander fan for
> years- but just never pursued any web groups. I have recently been
> watching all the episodes on DVD, so I decided to see what was around,
> and found you.
> My question, stupid though it may sound, is- where IS the fanfic?? I
> have had a very difficult time finding any. I DID find one place, but
> it was all homoerotic,and while I have NO problem with that; I cannot
> believe that with all the female fans of the show,there is no hetero
> fanfic.
> Help, please... so that I can participate. Thank you in advance....
> ~joan, from Maryland
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's BECAUSE there are so many female fans that there's so much slash.  ;)
Slash (homoerotic) fandom is 98% female.

The main archive is here:  http://www.seventh-dimension.org/
You can poke around and find whatever you like.

On 6/24/06, Joan <AJP910@...> wrote:

> My question, stupid though it may sound, is- where IS the fanfic?? I
> have had a very difficult time finding any. I DID find one place, but
> it was all homoerotic,and while I have NO problem with that; I cannot
> believe that with all the female fans of the show,there is no hetero
> fanfic.
>

--
Bas.
--
ekotsgnisab at gmail dot com
http://www.ravenswing.com/~bas/
"That's not your story. Your story had naked men in it. Bouncin' around."
--Zorak


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In CriticalEdge@yahoogroups.com, "Joan" <AJP910@...> wrote:
>
> hello, all!
>  I am a newbie to this group, but i have been a Highlander fan for
> years- but just never pursued any web groups. I have recently been
> watching all the episodes on DVD, so I decided to see what was around,
> and found you.
>  My question, stupid though it may sound, is- where IS the fanfic?? I
> have had a very difficult time finding any. I DID find one place, but
> it was all homoerotic,and while I have NO problem with that; I cannot
> believe that with all the female fans of the show,there is no hetero
> fanfic.
>  Help, please... so that I can participate. Thank you in advance....
> ~joan, from Maryland
>

Hi, Joan.

Highlander is a slash-heavy fandom ("slash" is what the homoerotic fanfic is
usually
called.  & it's usually written by women).  I don't know a lot of het stuff
myself, but
there's really good gen (non-romance) in the fandom -- I really like the author
Sylvia
Volk - here's her lj: <http://sylviavolk2000.livejournal.com/>

Anyone have good leads on het stuff?  I know of a few Methos/Amanda pieces but
there's got to be some good Duncan/Tessa or Duncan/Amanda out there that I'm
forgetting...

--laura

hello, all!
  I am a newbie to this group, but i have been a Highlander fan for
years- but just never pursued any web groups. I have recently been
watching all the episodes on DVD, so I decided to see what was around,
and found you.
  My question, stupid though it may sound, is- where IS the fanfic?? I
have had a very difficult time finding any. I DID find one place, but
it was all homoerotic,and while I have NO problem with that; I cannot
believe that with all the female fans of the show,there is no hetero
fanfic.
  Help, please... so that I can participate. Thank you in advance....
~joan, from Maryland

The food and drink was delivered and she forced herself to take in as
much as she could. She wouldn’t even be able to attempt ka’queha until
she was substantially restored in strength, but she could not finish the
platter of fresh fruits and greens that the g’nagal had brought. When
she sighed and waved the dishes away, it gathered them up and turned to
leave. “Wait,” she called, and it instantly stopped and turned, awaiting
her instructions. “How is Ce’dane?” she asked.

“Ce’dane of the Mountains has not awakened from his healing,” it
responded slowly, “but he lives.”

Thalia nodded, and the g’nagal turned and slipped silently away. Her
mind wandered from extraneous thought to extraneous thought, pondering
on how long it would take Ce’dane to recover – not physically. Dane’s
internal resources were on a par with her own so his physical recovery
was never in doubt. No, the question was whether he was lost to them in
other ways, whether the occasional madness of the long fanshea, which
struck them all periodically, exacerbated by the confinement of the
dark, constructed dún that was now their entire universe, had combined
to steal his reason, his very essence of being. It was happening to them
all, in one way or another, she admitted to herself with a sigh that
turned into a shudder of dread. With the move away from the radiation
and heat of their deteriorating sun, into the underground – a move
utterly necessary for their survival – they had become a bitter,
isolated people. Even she. There were even a number of the Sidhe who had
simply gone to their chambers, reclined on their bed of geesta and…
stopped being, lying in perpetual state of ka’queha. Thalia had always
hoped that once the Gateway was open, they could transport their bodies
across, bring them into the sunlight and they would be born again.

But perhaps not. Perhaps it was too late for them. Perhaps it was too
late for all of them. Thalia lay back, not wanting to think anymore, not
wanting to feel anymore, and slept.

~~~~~~

The sense of urgency, the need to ‘get’ somewhere, especially away from
the irritation of Methos’ and Joe’s watchful eyes, had moderated
considerably as he drove south through Washington and Oregon and into
California. Driving along the Pacific Coast Highway had always been a
favorite way to relax. As the weather warmed he rolled down the rented
sedan’s windows to breathe the salty moisture of the ocean churning only
a short distance off to his right and was refreshed by his frequent
glimpses of the vast gray-blue of the Pacific Ocean.

Gradually, the almost painful tension that had bedeviled him for months
began to ease a little, so he slowed down and took his time, traveling
without any particular destination in mind. He stopped in small inland
motels, avoiding the tourist crowds, and was relieved to find he wasn’t
having the bizarre dreams that had been troubling him for months, or if
he did dream, the details escaped him immediately upon wakening so they
didn’t feel like there was some urgent message his brain was trying to
tell him – a message he neither understood nor wanted to hear.

He used cash, mostly, even though he had switched to a previously unused
identity he’d kept current over the past decade, establishing credit
cards and bank accounts, driver’s license and passport. Of course, he’d
used other personas in the past but had never bothered to disabuse Joe
and Methos of their conviction that he was incapable of using any
identity other than Duncan MacLeod. The Watchers had just never caught
him at it. The knowledge that there were holes in his Watcher Chronicles
made him smile.

It was sometimes nice to be underestimated. Joe surely knew he had the
skills and know-how to acquire fake passports and construct an entirely
new identity. Did Joe think he did it just for entertainment? While the
notion that his friends thought so little of him was irksome, it was
worth it for the opportunity to escape Watcher scrutiny, at least for a
while. He hadn’t realized just how oppressive knowing your every move
was monitored was until he was free of it. He would have to be careful,
though. His face was too well known and while he could grow a mustache
or change his hair color and style, his basic features were very
recognizable. He’d avoid crossing any international borders or going
into any big city centers, and he’d sure as hell stay away from other
Immortals, even those he trusted, since they’d have their own Watchers.
Besides, if what Methos had said was true, his presence would only put
them at risk – again. That was another sobering thought that was a
recurring theme in his life. How many times had his very existence been
a threat – sometimes fatal, to the people he cared most about?

Yeah, his experience with O’Rourke had dispelled the heavy sense of
uselessness and depression that had haunted him since Richie’s death,
when it had been a real struggle to get back to being able to deal with
life at all, much less staying focused long enough to banish some
pissed-off millennial demon. But just because he had worked past most of
that pain didn’t mean that, under current circumstances, his friends
weren’t better off keeping him at a distance. He was pretty sure even
Methos would agree, given that whole “You’re the cause of a Gathering”
crap he had been spouting during the most recent Methosian lecture on
his many failings.

As he drove and the days passed in peaceful monotony, the painful knot
between his shoulders began to loosen and he finally began to think
about a destination. Wilderness appealed to him but his island retreat
was too obvious. And while true wilderness was getting harder and harder
to find, the Americas still had vast tracts of relatively unoccupied
areas, so he turned east, away from the California coast and towards
Arizona. The incredible landscape and ancient feel of western Arizona
would be a balm to his admittedly troubled soul. Unlike the great
forests of the northwest, where you could lose yourself in a very
private canopy of green oak and pine and alder and aspen, there was no
where like the vast carved canyons, spires and endless plains of the
southwest desert to make you feel just how insignificant one human life
– even an immortal life – was in the endless wheel of time. And
insignificant was good. Insignificance meant what you did mattered only
to you, and the small day-to-day, mundane details of life settled into
their proper, comfortable perspective.

The drive across the desert towards Las Vegas was soothingly boring. He
listened to NPR on the radio, chuckling as Garrison Keillor wove his
amusing tales of Lake Woebegon’s ordinary people doing ordinary things,
thereby revealing the universality of the human experience. It was
comforting to hear anecdotes that made him feel part of, rather than
separate from, the rest of the world.

He arrived in Las Vegas one early evening and cruised slowly down the
main boulevard for awhile, watching the bizarre parade of people and
extraordinary excess – of lights, of water, of fire, of gilded columns
and mirrored surfaces until his head ached from it all and he sped out
of town without stopping, driving through the deep desert darkness until
he finally found a small town with an isolated motel that had absolutely
no distinguishing characteristic except for the amusingly trite absence
of the “E” in its neon “MOTEL” sign.

The mattress was lumpy, the bedspread frayed, the nightstands were of
chipped and stained vinyl laminate, and the place smelled of stale
cigarettes, dust and mildew, but he had driven long enough to be a
little buzzed from the car’s constant vibration and he fell into the
bed, grateful just to be prone for awhile. He had certainly been in
worse places in his long life, and he slept – dreamlessly, until well
past dawn.

He stepped out into the light of a bright morning high desert sun,
discovering that the little town he had happened upon by chance,
Braddockville by name – had very few redeeming features. Its primary
economic activity appeared to be as a gas and bathroom stop for buses
taking tour groups to and from the Grand Canyon to larger cities like
Flagstaff, Phoenix or Las Vegas. There were a couple of souvenir and
tee-shirt shops along the main drag, which was all of about a mile long,
plus a combination gas station-hardware store-garage and antique shop
(called Joe’s Trading Emporium, which made him smile), a coffee shop, a
few fastfood restaurants, three major brand gas stations, a beauty salon
and four, no make that five, bars, with the main attraction along the
highway evidently being a garishly colorful ice cream and burger place
right next door to the garage.

The summer parade of vans packed with dirty, tired Canyon campers had
slacked off, so he was probably personally responsible for a
considerable uptick in the local economy, he mused as he ate an
obscenely high-fat breakfast of eggs, bacon, hash browns and biscuits
served by a shy but smiling round-faced young Indian woman whose plastic
name tag labeled her as “Maria”. He snuck several long glances as her as
she served the locals coffee in a large corner booth, taking their
off-color ribbing in stride and giving as good as she got. It tugged
painfully at his heartstrings, but he couldn’t help himself. She wasn’t
Sioux, probably Navaho or another of the local tribes. Still, she had
the lovely, warm, golden skin…

Damn, but he was a sentimental idiot. Little Deer and Kahani had died
over a hundred years ago, for God’s sake. Disgusted with himself, he
left a ridiculously generous tip and slipped out while she was busy
making a fresh pot of coffee. He felt a desperate need for exercise but
this place didn’t look exactly like a physical fitness mecca, so he
opted for walking along the cracked and broken sidewalk, stretching his
legs and absorbing the feel the of the desert sun on his skin. The air
was winter-crisp in spite of the bright sunlight, and it would have been
nice to be able to break into a run, but that would have drawn too much
attention. After a half-mile or so, he reached the edge of town, so he
crossed the wide highway, timing his walk between eighteen-wheelers,
campers and SUVs speeding along at about 80 miles an hour. The other
side of the highway also presented little in the way of the interesting
or unusual, although there were some beat up, outrageously decorated old
cars parked around the ice cream parlor, next door to Joe’s Trading
Emporium, used as quaint signage to attract and entertain the customers.

He slowed as he walked by, cataloguing the near-antique vehicles in his
mind, just to test his memory. There was a late 60’s Volkswagen Beetle,
badly rusted, with its seats ripped out, but it was garishly painted to
advertise ice cream and french fries, touted as “the best in the world,
or at least in Braddockville!” More interesting was a 1954 Chevy 3100
truck.

It was hard to tell what color it had originally been since time,
exposure and long use had dimmed the paint job to a mushy, spotty
maroon. The seats were torn, with dirty, stained foam rubber poking up
through the nondescript fabric that had once covered it. There was an
old green army tarp thrown over the back, so he couldn’t really see what
shape the truck bed was in, but all of the tires were flat. Curious, he
circled the vehicle, noting that despite its age, there was remarkably
little rust – probably due to the desert environment. The original door
handles were intact and the floorboards, what he could see of them
through dirty windows and underneath the debris of ripped foam rubber,
ancient magazines and old take-out soda cups, were surprisingly solid
looking.

“You a fan of old cars?” a gentle baritone asked behind him. He had been
aware of the man’s near-silent approach and had caught a brief
reflection in the truck’s window of a figure in a stained baseball cap.

“Antiques of all kinds are a hobby of mine,” he answered, turning to
face a burly man in a faded plaid western shirt. His dark skin was
weathered from long exposure to the sun, his teeth stained by time and
tobacco, but his eyes were sharp, examining Mac with a curious expression.

“You a collector, or just an admirer?”

“A little of both, really. I’ve restored a few older models in my time.
I have a 1966 Ford Thunderbird convertible back home. Keeping her
running has been a challenge, though.”

The man examined the old truck with a crooked, affectionate smile. “My
old man used this truck for his whole life. Bought it right after the
war, brand new, all bright and shiny red.” He walked toward the back,
pulling the tarp away to reveal the wooden side slats still intact, if
weathered to almost gray. The bed was battered, but intact and
rust-free. “It was his pride and joy and I always wanted to fix her back
up, but I never had the time and finding the parts these days…” he
shrugged. “It makes me sad to see her just sitting out here collecting
dust. Tony,” he jutted his chin towards the ice cream shop, “wanted to
paint her up with silly slogans and advertising, but I wouldn’t let him.
Not this one, not Rosie.” He patted the truck on the roof as though it
were some pet he wanted to comfort.

“Rosie, eh?” Mac responded with a smile. “Well, compatible parts aren’t
that hard to find anymore now that we have the internet,” Mac advised.
He unlatched the hood, which moved up with a hard shove and a screech of
poorly oiled hinges, and then propped it open with a long rod. He peered
inside to see if he could spot any major problems in the engine. “And if
you know what you’re doing, you can substitute a lot of parts. This
engine looks pretty well shot, but I bet you could find a rebuilt Chevy
engine that could be made to work.”

The man leaned in beside Mac, peering into the grimy shadows of the
engine’s inner workings. “Yeah, well, it’d take a lot of time and
expertise I don’t really have, I’m afraid.” He stood and offered a
weathered hand. “I’m Joe,” he said, indicating towards the “Joe’s
Trading Emporium” sign.”

“MacKinsey Lawson,” MacLeod responded, taking the hard-callused hand and
giving it a firm shake. “But my friends call me Mac.”

~~~~~~~

Joe scrolled through the day’s reports on “unknown/unexpected Immortal
sightings”, looking for evidence of MacLeod’s whereabouts as Methos
silently slouched in an office chair on the other side of the desk.

“Here’s something about a tall, dark-haired male Immortal,” he murmured,
and Methos instantly sat up, leaning forward in anticipation. “Nah,” Joe
sighed after looking at the entry more closely. “It looks like it was
Matthew McCormick showing up at an investigation after a beheading in
Omaha.”

Methos muttered some incomprehensible foreign phrase that Joe decided
could probably be universally translated as, “Damn it!” and stood,
pacing the room, his hands jammed into his pockets, and growled, “Who
would have thought in the day of computers and credit cards, the idiot
could have disappeared that completely. He’s been using the same name
since the day he was born!”

Joe sat back, eyeing his tense, rangy friend. “And you thought he
couldn’t lose us if he really wanted to? He’s not a stupid man, Methos,
and he’s been around for over 400 years.” Joe sighed and scrubbed his
face tiredly, trying to get his brain to function at a slightly higher
level. “Besides, you said you’d feel if he had started meditating again,
so maybe he just needed to get away and clear his head.”

“Get away from me, you mean?” Methos stopped his pacing and pinning Joe
with a hard glare.

“I dunno,” Joe shrugged. “Maybe. You’re the oldest, so maybe there was
something about being around you that….”

“That’s not it!” Methos snapped. “And if he’s stopped meditating for the
moment it just means they…” his voice trailed off. “It just means it’ll
be worse when he starts back up again, and there won’t be anyone around
to watch his back.”

Joe sat forward, meeting Methos’ glare with one of his own. “Who,
precisely, are “they”, Methos?”

“There is no “they”, Joe. It’s just a figure of speech,” Methos groused,
turning away to pace again. “Maybe he’s contacted Robert and Gina
deValicourt by now. I’ll try them again.”

“They said they’d call if they heard from him. Jeez, Methos, you’re like
a longtailed cat in a room full of rockin’ chairs. And don’t give me
that, “There is no ‘they’” crap. You know something you’re not tellin’
and if you expect me to help you find him, you’re gonna have to give me
a little somethin’ in return.” Joe leaned forward on the desk, leaning
on his forearms. “And maybe if you had told MacLeod what you know he
might not have rabbitted out of here so fast.”

“And maybe he would have done something fatally stupid, like go and get
himself killed,” Methos snapped back.

“Your faith in him is underwhelming,” Joe muttered almost inaudibly, but
Methos looked at him with a frown.

“Oh, I have a lot of faith in his bloody heroics and overblown martyr
complex.”

“Yeah? Well, that doesn’t always work, does it? What about that whole
thing with Steven Keane? You and Amanda were convinced he was going to
deliberately lose a fight out of guilt, but that wasn’t what he was
going on at all. You don’t always know what he’s thinking, Methos. Being
old doesn’t make you omniscient.”

Methos’ eyes narrowed at being corrected. “Fair enough, but when it
comes to self-sacrifice, he’s pretty fucking ready to throw himself on
the pyre, isn’t he?” Methos braced his hands on the desk, leaning over
to whisper malevolently, “Or have you so conveniently forgotten that you
managed to get yourself kidnapped and almost got him killed on your behalf?”

Joe’s mouth tightened in anger but he held it in check, recognizing the
nasty comment for what it was – a diversion. But the wily old Immortal
had already revealed too much. “Self-sacrifice? And just what, pray
tell, in our current situation, involves MacLeod’s self-sacrifice?”

Methos pushed away from the desk slowly, then sank back into his chair.
He stared at the floor blindly for a long, silent pause. “I can’t be
completely certain,” he finally said, but he was speaking so softly Joe
had to strain to hear. “It was so damned long ago I had pretty much
forgotten, or at least assumed it was… irrelevant.”

Joe waited in the office’s semi-dark, hardly daring to breathe in
anticipation that Methos might, just might, finally reveal something of
what was going on in that ancient head. The only light was from the
office desk, which cast stark shadows along one side of Methos’ sharp
features as he gripped his temples with one long-fingered hand. “It goes
back, all the way back,” he sighed softly. “Back to the beginning of
what we are, and why we are here.”


To be continued….

Origins
by MacGeorge

Chapter Seven

It had been a very long night. MacLeod had tossed and turned and mumbled
and sighed and gotten up several times, padding quietly around the dark
room to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water. Methos had also
hardly slept at all. Not only was he wired with the usual
post-Quickening edginess, but his every sense was attuned to the
possibility that Mac might try to sneak downstairs and meditate despite
the now-obvious dangers. At last gray light began to soften the dark
shadows and Methos sat up and rubbed his face to help stimulate his
thought processes. He was utterly, disconcertingly torn, his mind prone
to wander off in unpredictable and uncomfortable directions without
notice. Part of him was burning with an almost overwhelming compulsion
to run far and run long, to find some utterly anonymous place to hide.
Then the other part – damn the other part – kept him firmly, solidly,
right where he was because… because MacLeod deserved better than to have
to deal with anymore of someone else’s ugly ancient history that had
come back to bite him in the arse.

He looked over at the rumpled platform bed at the end of the room and
was relieved to see that, for the moment at least, Mac was still and
silent. It was odd, in a way, to see him like that, so very still yet so
very… alive, as only MacLeod could be. The man seemed to exude energy,
and it wasn’t just the massive Quickenings he had taken in his
relatively short life. It was just… who he was.

An uncomfortable chill washed over Methos shoulders at the memory of Mac
lying limp on the floor of the dojo – utterly dead, cold, still and
devoid of life. Even now Methos wasn’t precisely sure how he had known,
but there was no question in his mind that more than Mac’s body was
lifeless, and that Mac wasn’t coming back, barring extraordinary
measures. He rubbed his arms for warmth and shook himself free of
chilling, morbid thoughts.

He desperately needed a shower, and not just to wash off the stink of
the previous night’s battle-sweat. He stood carefully to avoid any
telltale creaking from the soft leather couch and retreated into the
bathroom. Like the rest of MacLeod’s space, it was essentially spare but
spacious and had all the requisite functions and accoutrements,
including the odd, occasional touch of luxury. When he finally stepped
out of the five-foot square shower with dual showerheads that had
massaged the kinks out of his neck and shoulders, the world seemed a
much more civilized place.

He wrapped one oversized towel around his waist and draped another over
his shoulders. A transparent billow of steam followed him into the main
room, quickly dissipating in the cool morning air. The light was on and
MacLeod was up, dressed and bustling about in the kitchen even though
the sun’s rays had yet to touch the windowsills.

Under most circumstances it would have been a comforting scene. Methos
had known very few Immortals he trusted – and yes, respected – as much
as he did MacLeod. Which made his current dilemma all the more
difficult. With an entire world of Immortals to choose from, those
sadistic bastards would choose to pick on the one he had formed a close
friendship with. But then, you’ve known what MacLeod was ever since you
read his chronicles, haven’t you?, Methos’ own irritating conscience
grumbled.

He breathed in the delicious aroma of freshly ground coffee and moved
towards the kitchen island. “You’re up early,” he commented, picking up
a piece of freshly buttered toast.

“So are you,” Mac replied, looking over his shoulder with a half smile
and a lifted eyebrow. “I don’t think I’ve ever seen you fully conscious
this close to dawn before.”

“I’ve seen more dawns than you can count,” Methos mumbled around his
toast. “Dawn is vastly overrated, in my opinion. Sunsets are much nicer,
warmer and they come at a far more respectable hour. Besides, people
look at you funny when you toast the dawn with a nice, cold beer.”

“Since when has it bothered you to have people look at you funny?”
MacLeod quipped as he threw some bacon into a hot pan and watched it
begin to sizzle. The smell of the cooking meat was tantalizing and
Methos came closer, hanging over Mac’s shoulder as he crunched on his
toast. It was always like this after a Quickening, all his senses
heightened, his whole being more alert and energized. Mac’s very
nearness, the vibration of his powerful Quickening, was making Methos
edgy and he wasn’t sure which he wanted more, to get closer or move
further away. The knowledge that the whole attract/repel dichotomy was
built into his genetic structure should have helped mute the sensation,
but somehow knowing why it happened didn’t help much.

“Is there something I can do for you?” Mac asked with a raised eyebrow,
looking over his shoulder as he tended the cooking meat.

“No,” Methos answered casually. “Just feeling… sort of… hungry.”

Mac looked at him speculatively for a moment, then gave a quick nod
before turning back to his task. “Yeah, well this will be ready in a
minute, or we can wait and go for a run first, if you want.”

“I just showered, MacLeod. Getting sweaty again wouldn’t make much
sense. Besides, after last night, you want to exercise? When did you
take up masochism as a lifestyle?”

Duncan shrugged. “It’s just that I know how it can be after a
Quickening. All I’m saying is that I’ll be fine. You don’t have to baby
sit me every minute. I promise I won’t meditate, if that’s what you’re
worried about,” he said grumpily, turning back to his bacon, which was
about done, so he laid each piece carefully on a piece of paper towel to
drain.

Methos just watched for a minute. For anyone who didn’t know him well,
MacLeod appeared to be the epitome of physical perfection, every move
graceful and economical. But what Methos saw was a man moving with
exquisite care, every muscle held under tight, obsessive, specific control.

“Frankly, MacLeod, that’s exactly what I’m worried about. I’m not sure
you can control the impulse.”

Mac put the fork down, turned off the fire under the pan and turned
around, his expression a little too carefully neutral for Methos’
comfort. “I think in over 400 years I’ve learned a little about
self-discipline.” He leaned against the stove, folded his arms across
his chest and met Methos’ gaze with a cool, appraising look. “And if I
make a promise, I’m pretty good about keeping it. Is it a matter of
trust, or are you so worried because you know something more about
what’s going on than you’re telling me?”

Methos bit into the rest of his toast and chewed thoughtfully while
rubbing his damp hair with the towel. After 5,000 years, chickens were
finally coming home to roost, and he hadn’t a clue what to do about it.
“What I know, MacLeod, is that I better put some clothes on before I
catch my death of cold,” he quipped. “Got anything clean I can borrow?”

Mac’s dark eyes narrowed in annoyance, then he sighed, pushed away from
the stove and crossed the room to rummage in his wardrobe, coming up
with sweatpants and a sweater and tossing them in Methos’ direction.
They eventually settled into a quiet breakfast, each man lost in his own
thoughts or engrossed in the morning paper. When Duncan rose to clear
the island of their dishes, Methos pitched in and the two of them worked
efficiently in the small space. Duncan put away the last of the dishes
and wiped his hands on a towel, studying Methos with a speculative look.

“So, what’s on the agenda for the day?” Methos asked preemptively.

“I don’t know what’s on your agenda, but I’ve got some calls to make,
errands to run,” Mac answered. “Don’t you have to be somewhere?” he
asked. “Students to meet with? Papers to grade? Clothes to wash?” he
added pointedly, nodding to the clothes Methos had left lying in a heap
by the couch.

Methos was in a bit of a quandary. Instinct told him he needed to stay
close to MacLeod, but practically speaking that was unrealistic. MacLeod
wouldn’t put up with a babysitter and in the light of a new day, Methos’
paranoia seemed a little overblown. “Yeah, well, I should at least go
get the papers I’m supposed to finish grading, I suppose,” he
reluctantly acknowledged. “How long are you going to be out?”

“As long as it takes,” Mac answered with an irritated growl. He had put
on his coat and moved to his desk and was rummaging in it, taking papers
out and putting them in his pockets. The man was close to open rebellion
at being so closely monitored and Methos knew he needed to back off a
little.

“Okay,” he answered in a deliberately casual tone. “I’ll go get my
stuff, do laundry, and then call you and we can talk about what we want
to do for dinner and, uh, living arrangements,” Methos added, gesturing
vaguely at the space around them.

“And then you can tell me all these secrets you’ve been keeping about
what the hell is going on, right?” Mac asked, giving him a grim look
while tucking his katana into his coat. He waited, meeting Methos’ eyes
with a hard look, but Methos kept his mouth firmly shut. “Right. That’s
what I thought,” Mac snapped, heading towards the door.

The room seemed remarkably empty once Mac had gone.

Methos shook himself, deciding he actually did need to do laundry and
gather all his papers and his laptop computer. He really needed to stay
pretty close to MacLeod. The stakes were awfully high if Mac started the
whole meditation thing again. But then, Mac had promised and MacLeod was
nothing if not absurdly devoted to keeping promises.

Despite his own admonition to try to give Mac a little more room, by
late morning Methos had finished his own chores and was getting restless
and called Mac on his cell phone. After over an hour slowly ticked by
and Mac hadn’t returned his messages, Methos called Joe to have him
contact Mac’s Watcher and find out where Mac was.

“What Watcher?” Joe asked.

A cold chill chased down Methos spine and seemed to seep into his bones.
“What do you mean, ‘What Watcher?’ Joe? That’s what you’re supposed to
do, isn’t it? Watch?”

“You know I don’t keep a fulltime Watcher on Mac, and you told me you
were going to stay with him, so why should I?” Joe answered irritably,
although Methos could hear a touch of worry in his voice.

By mid afternoon, when there had still been no response to his several
messages, Methos drove to Joe’s bar where the lunch crowd was occupying
the Watcher’s full attention. Despite the dark looks Methos pointedly
threw in the Watcher’s direction, it was almost a half an hour before
Joe the crowd cleared out enough for Joe to join Methos across from his
seat at the bar.

“I’ve got somebody keeping an eye on the dojo now, but it’s probably
nothing,” Joe tried to sound reassuring. “Maybe the battery died on his
cell phone.”

Methos gave him a dark look, and Joe flinched, turning away to put on
some more coffee. “How about I go do a little poking around at his place
to see if I can figure out where he might have gone?”

“Well, your snooping around his apartment is probably just gonna piss
him off,” Joe snarled, slamming the glass carafe onto the burner with a
little too much force.

“I’ll worry about pissing him off when we figure out what the hell he’s
up to,” Methos muttered.

Joe gave him a sharp look. “It’s possible he might’ve run into another
Immortal and is dealing with that, although we haven’t gotten any
reports of Quickenings in the area. Yet.” Joe paused, studying Methos
for a moment. “What are you thinking, Methos?”

Methos drummed a little pattern on the wood of the bar with his fingers.
“Nothing, I just don’t like him being out of touch like this.” He stood
to go, but Joe held up his hand, reached into his pocket and extracted a
ring of keys, pulling one loose. “Mac had the locks changed last week.”
He held it out towards Methos, but pulled it back as Methos reached for
it. “Not until you tell me what you think is going on,” Joe said grimly.
Without appearing to have moved at all, Methos had the possession of the
key and was backing out before Joe even realized it was gone.

“Sorry, Joe,” Methos shrugged. “Maybe another time.”

“You bastard!” Joe shouted after him, but Methos knew the mortal didn’t
have a prayer of catching up to him, and the closing door quickly masked
the sound of Joe’s angry protests.

Mac’s place was empty. Oh, it wasn’t just that MacLeod wasn’t there. It
was more than that. The signs were subtle but Methos had always had an
eye for details that others might not notice. The spare coat that was
usually hanging on the coat tree was missing, each drawer in the
wardrobe had excess space, and – most importantly – the duffle bag that
took up a small corner of the upper part of the wardrobe was gone.

“Damn him!” Methos muttered as he reached for his cell phone.

~~~~~~

It took time for ‘Thalia to recover from retrieving Dane, who had been
almost unrecognizable when she finally managed to tie a line around his
torso before she, too collapsed and died of the poisons in the
atmosphere, the unbearable heat and the toxic rain that had completely
eaten through her protective clothing and large portions of her flesh.
It had been a devastating experience – not just the physical trial, but
the emotional impact of seeing her beautiful world utterly destroyed.
She had not been above ground for many, many fanshea, and while she knew
that conditions were terrible, nothing had prepared her for seeing it
first-hand. The soaring architecture perfected and refined over a
stretch of time such that even she could not remember the origins of
most of it, was gone. The vast expanse of gardens and forests so
carefully and lovingly cultivated by the hand of every Danae that had
ever walked this soil were stunted and dead. The only remaining life
left was that which they had deliberately altered to survive in such a
hostile environment in order to preserve as much as they could of the
atmosphere for as long as possible.

She had found Dane’s body at the base of what had once been his forest
home, a creation of his own hands and mind and energy that had been so
enormous and towering that at one time its highest reaches were
perpetually shrouded in misty clouds. Growths of rich hues of amber and
ocher had formed the walls of the hundreds of rooms built into the side
of a mountain, each swirled in chaotic patterns and imbued with
wonderful, subtle scents of whatever plant life Dane had coaxed to his
will. Archways, stairs, paths, caverns – even the furniture, had all
been grown to Dane’s precise specifications. Over time, each room had
become an individualized display of the brilliant geneticist’s and
horticulturist’s art, a delight to every sense, including the awareness
of knowledge and wisdom that went into planning the smallest detail of
every space and its intended use.

That entire mountain was now a barren wasteland, with only the stumps of
a few of the largest growths still remaining, and even those were devoid
of life, their enormous, decayed remains being gradually eaten away by
the corrosive atmosphere.

She had wept as she wrapped the line around the pitiful mound of flesh
that was what remained of Ce’dane of the Mountains, his clothes gone,
his skin so eaten away that she feared his body would disintegrate as it
was pulled back towards the shelter of underground, and that he might
truly die as a result. But she could barely manage even that before the
pain of her own flesh being stripped from her bones combined with the
barely breathable atmosphere to render her unconscious, and ultimately –
dead.

She awoke with a gulping gasp of pain and near-panic as shards of agony
stabbed every nerve-ending in her body. Her head, her eyes, her arms,
her legs were all on fire and she cried out, but even that small
involuntary effort generated new layers of pain. How long had it been, a
small part of her mind wondered, since she had suffered any more than
the transient discomfort of a misstep or small abrasion? Making the
Transition from death to life was a horror she had not endured since her
first Transition to Sidhe’fanshea – the ritual passage from infancy to
becoming Of the Sidhe. And then it had been only a fleeting, if
shocking, sensation.

It seemed to take forever as she drifted in and out of consciousness,
but gradually, gradually, the pain eased, but left her panting and
thrashing. She vaguely realized that she had been laid out in her own
quarters on her bed of geesta, her bedchamber delineated by soft layers
of transparent fabric that undulated gently, stirred by the ever-present
breezes that moved throughout the vast underground city that had been
their home for so long. A g’nagal gently stroked her forehead with its
fingers, periodically putting a cup of cool liquid to her lips. Even
with the drugs the pain was intense, well-nigh unbearable, and she was
abnormally aware of the pounding of her own heart as each throb
generated a stab of agony. “Make it stop,” she managed to gasp, but the
only response was urging by the g’nagal to drink from the cup it
offered. The liquid must have been infused with a sleeping agent,
because she quickly drifted off despite the lingering memory/nightmare
of feeling her flesh disintegrate from her bones.

When she awoke again, the light in the room was barely discernable
without movement to generate luminescence, but she deliberately remained
still. She was alone, although no doubt had she called out or even moved
significantly, a g’nagal would be almost instantly at her side. For the
moment, however, she relished the quiet. She had forgotten about the
lightness of spirit, the near-euphoria that accompanied the sudden
cessation of intense pain. From time to time, there had even been those
among them who would obsessively hurt themselves solely for the moments
of artificial joy felt once the self-punishment had stopped. It had
never been her path, but she could understand the attraction, especially
to those who had lost their sense of purpose over the long, tedious
stretch of fanshea. When a people had no threat to its individual or
racial survival, the greatest challenge was…sanity.

She took a deep breath and let it out slowly. Even that slight movement
brought a silent g’nagal to her side. It knelt, awaiting any request she
might have. “Bring me something to drink and eat,” she instructed
softly, and the creature rose and slipped away to do her bidding.

She wondered how much time had passed as her body had healed. The
passage of time was not something she usually concerned herself with,
but time had different meanings across the dimensional Gate, and the
potential for events outpacing her own readiness was a serious issue –
one with which she was ill equipped to deal, especially at the moment.
She gazed in dismay at her emaciated arms and assumed the rest of her
body was similarly depleted in muscle mass and strength. A touch to her
chest also revealed a reversion back to her pre-childbearing state. It
was, after all, the only real outer designation that made her nominally
female, and she felt oddly disappointed at the loss. Fewer and fewer of
the Sidhe were willing – even for the relatively short gestation period
– to expend the time and considerable energy to deal with the
inconvenience of producing an offspring, especially now that such
creations were not really of the Sidhe, but genetically modeled after
the merely mortal humans and immediately released across the dimensional
gateway, never to be seen again.

Being v’tah – the bearer of life – used to be a source of great joy,
vied for among the strongest and eldest of their kind. The act of
creation was one of transcendent physical pleasure, and the body’s
change to bear and nurture the child was the only permanent alteration
of their form possible after the Transition.

But her choice to be the v’tah for the last potential opener of the Gate
had been made for entirely pragmatic reasons. She was determined to
control the offspring’s attributes more carefully than in previous
efforts, which generated a source of major contention among those who
contributed to its genetic composition. She had been the one to require
more initial energy from the various contributors and had made the final
choices not only to emphasize strength and endurance, but to imbue the
progeny with a certain charisma that would attract others of its kind,
as well as an inbred propensity towards caring for others, even to the
point of self-sacrifice. For, after all, wasn’t that what they were
requiring of it? The others had scoffed at her esoteric notions that
such subtle attributes would make a difference in the final push to open
the Gate. Thalia defied the conventional wisdom that greed for power was
the sole motivator that would compel the progeny to act in accordance
with their plan. After all, the previous specialized subjects had failed
miserably. The first had exhibited an astonishing willfulness and simply
defied their pressure and conditioning. The second had been deliberately
gifted with what they had assumed was unbeatable physical strength, but
he had been beaten, against all expectations – and by someone with the
very characteristics Thalia felt, if emphasized in even larger measure,
would give them the leverage they would need to compel their will.

continued in next post....

Origins
Chapter 7
by MacGeorge

Rating:  PG - so far (but no guarantees for the final rating)
Acknowledgements:  My thanks to esjay and cinel for wonderful beta duty.
Disclaimers:  Not my characters, but this story is intended to trump any
bizarre new stuff the movie comes out with about the "Source" of
Immortality.

All the currently posted chapters, plus a dictionary of terms can be
found on my Work in Process page, at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/wip.html

MacG

I enjoyed this!

   The pacing of it was just slow enough.

   The mundane details of the harbor and bizarre rumors of men from other places
brought the time and place to life for me.  I can just imagine Methos pretending
he could barely speak Greek to fleece the locals, and using the "clever prince"
to help him.

   This bit was particularly beautiful:  The man had eyes like the Aegean the
morning after a storm. A god could have eyes like that. And a god might sit
naked on a rock, playing with men and shells.

   Odysseus trying to put Methos into a category later was funny.  "You're a
soldier!"  "You're a sailor!"  Methos teaching him how to be a king of women,
and of the mysterious ways among men.

   Hot, hot, hot!

   Thanks so much for sharing!

   Keerawa


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I loved this a lot. Methos and the young Odysseus are well in character,
and the encounter is lovely described. Very well done. And very
believable, since it gives us a good idea about the origins of Odysseus
later practical approach on things. :-)

But I hardly think Warner Bros. can truly claim copyright to everyone of
Homer's characters, even if they used them in the movie Troy... that
would be pushing copyright a bit far, IMHO!

Thank you for this great and delightful story!

Aislynn

Susan Earle wrote:
> Title: The Shell Game Author: Taz Source Material: Highlander/Troy
> Pairing: Methos/Odysseus Summary: Provincial prince picks up cute
> trick. Rating: Moderately Hot for the Mature Reader Disclaimer:
> Characters herein belong to Panzer/Davis, Rysher Entertainment and
> Warner Bros. Pictures. They are used with no intention of profit or
> of copyright infringement. Warning: I wouldn't know where to begin
> and these damn things really get up my nose. Dedication: To Killa and
> Moljn, who were silly enough to say.
>
> The Shell Game By Taz

--

check out Crowdaughter's scribblings at:
http://crowdaughter.livejournal.com/

Damn! My most profound apologies-I should have posted a link.

Taz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Title: The Shell Game
Author: Taz
Source Material: Highlander/Troy
Pairing: Methos/Odysseus
Summary: Provincial prince picks up cute trick.
Rating: Moderately Hot for the Mature Reader
Disclaimer: Characters herein belong to Panzer/Davis, Rysher Entertainment and
Warner Bros. Pictures. They are used with no intention of profit or of copyright
infringement.
Warning: I wouldn't know where to begin and these damn things really get up my
nose.
Dedication: To Killa and Moljn, who were silly enough to say.

The Shell Game
By Taz


Odysseus slipped out of the palace by way of the kitchen. He grabbed a sack,
snatched one of the onion-filled loaves that were cooling beside the oven, waved
at the cooks, who were all too busy go tell on him, and went trotting down the
hill path.

Oh, there'd be a squall when they found him gone but, with luck, that might be a
while. Old Nurse was nodding in the afternoon heat and he'd arranged two water
skins to suggest a sleeping body under the blankets of his bed.

His senses were sharp after weeks of pain. Who could expect a man to lie abed
when the sky was the color of lapis? He couldn't have born another hour of his
mother and Old Nurse moaning 'oh, the poor scarred lamb' over him, prophesying
dire consequences if he even sat up.

Soft dust puffed between his toes with every step he took. The air smelled of
oregano and thyme. With luck he'd find Eirene and they'd.with a shiver he
remembered what they'd done out on the point by the old pig herder's hut. He'd
been remembering it for days. There'd been nothing else to do after his wound
began to heal and parts of his body, other than the calf of his leg, had become
inflamed. No old woman could understand how 'that' was.having to lie there until
she fell asleep and started snoring! Lamb, indeed!

His leg was aching, though, by the time he reached Raven's Rock. But it was a
good place to stop. From the peak you could see Ithaca's larger neighbor,
Palliki, floating on the horizon and it loomed over the terraced olive groves
that made the conical sides of Kastelli hill into a Titan's staircase. Banked
with quarried stone topped with tangles of wild pear they encircled the crescent
shaped harbor. He could see the wharves and royal warehouses and counted the six
of his father's war ships that were still in port. The beach itself was
cluttered with salt pans, troughs for brining olives, and racks of drying fish.

The fishing fleet was already back. The boats were tied to a line of posts in
the sand and he could see men handing baskets full of the day's catch over the
sides. Boys, who'd been out since before dawn helping their fathers, were
spreading nets to dry.

His stomach churned with disappointment. There'd be no grappling with Eirene
today. But, then, he saw the Cretan freighter at the far end of the beach where
a flat outcrop of rock formed a natural pier. Vessels, such as that, brought
jars of wine from Therra; copper ingots and pottery from Knossos; exotic woods,
murex dye and perfumed oils from Egypt-once, there'd been a stallion from
distant Troy for his father. And excitement, of a different sort, put wings on
his feet. He was Odysseus, prince of Ithaca, and he wasn't going home.at least,
not yet.

By the time he got there, most of the boats had been unloaded. A few women were
still sorting baskets of crabs and oysters. Small children were running around,
though, poking between their legs, crying for supper. They'd be leaving soon. He
headed to where the men were gathered in the shadow of the freighter, sharing
wine and talking. There was a circle of them. He couldn't see what they were
looking at, but the sea cast things up, usually flotsam or fishing floats, but
now and then a shark or a sea monster.

He ran under the prows of the fishing boats with their staring painted eyes:
Triton, Poseidon's Pride, The Argos, and lastly, 'Dite's Tities. Asenio owned
'the Tit' and Arsenio's wife, Rhea was hanging squid on a line to dry.

She called to him, wanting him to take a message to the palace, something about
a batch of wool she was dying for his mother. He couldn't waste time with such
stuff! But, if he didn't, she might hike up the hill herself and tell his
mother, who would tell his father... and, besides, there were olives in one of
her baskets. He took a handful and pretended to listen.

He'd known Rhea all of his life. She was old. At least 30. Nearly his mother's
age. But, suddenly, he was aware of how her green shift clung to her breasts.
And the green skirt that she'd tied up to stay clear of the water, foaming
around her ankles, exposed her strong brown legs. With his knowledge, newly
gained from Eirene, he couldn't help imagining how it might feel between her
thighs. His body responded.

Fortunately, before he could betray himself, there was a shout from the
freighter. He craned around to look and could see the knot of men below had
gotten thicker. Cretan sailors were standing at the rails, looking down. "What
is it?"

"A stranger," Rhea said, and made a sign.

Odysseus caught his breath. She didn't mean an off-islander. She meant
'not-Greek.'

The annual mission from Mycenae to collect tribute brought strutting mainland
Greeks, arrogant men with jewels plaited in their hair. The quick talking Cretan
merchants in white linen were Greeks, too, of a sort. But, until today, the only
real stranger Odysseus had ever seen had been the broad-shouldered Trojan horse
trader, who had looked like anyone else-unless there'd been some hideous oddity
under his long blue kilt.

Hurriedly, he wiped his hand on his kilt and went to see.

Rhea frowned at the folly of men.

Odysseus had learned in the land of the Hyperboreans people had one leg with a
foot so big that they walked on their hands and carried over it their heads to
keep the sun off. And that in the lands of south of Punt people had mouths in
their bellies. To the west, men were the color of cinnabar. So it was
disappointing that this man, like the Trojan, looked just like anyone else. And,
unlike the Trojan, it was easy to be sure. Except for the pouch around his neck,
he was naked. Sunburned, with salt matted dark hair, he was just sitting with
his back to a bale of hides, a rag wrapped bundle by his feet and a sea washed
board on his lap.

But everyone was watching the three pink scallop shells he was moving over the
board. The way his hands danced and skipped and the shells flickered like magic.
Then he picked one up. A small white stone winked and disappeared to appear,
moments later, under another shell. "Keep eyes on the stone. Which is it under?"
His Greek was barbarous. "Where it hiding?"

His hands stopped. Cleax's smallest son reached out and shyly touched one of the
shells. The stranger turned it over. There was nothing. He turned over the one
beside it and there was the stone. "Must have blinked," the stranger said,
replacing the shells and tapping the one covering the stone. "See?" Cleax's son
nodded. "Watch. No blink." He made the shells dance. "Where?"

Head bobbing, the boy pointed. The stranger picked up the shell. No stone. "You
blink."

There was laughter. Cries of 'do it again.'

"Watch careful, this time." The shells danced. "Where?"

The boy pointed to the shell in the middle. No, Odysseus thought to himself, the
one on the left.

It was under the one on the left.

"Do it again! Do it again!" This time, Odysseus's voice was among the chorus.

Another boy chose.

Wrong again.

There was murmuring in the crowd. Odysseus found himself saying, "I know where
it is."

The stranger squinted at him. He pointed to the shell on the right. But the
stone wasn't there. It was under the one in the middle. He'd been so sure. "Do
it again," he said.

The stranger moved the shells. "Ready?"

"I've got it."

"Bet bread on it?"

He'd forgotten the loaf sticking out of his sack.

"Sure." Odysseus leaned forward and tapped the shell on the right. What was a
loaf of bread, after all?

The stranger's, apparently. He picked up the shell Odysseus had chosen and said,
"Mine. Want to show how?"

"Yes," Odysseus said. He'd been watching the way the stone moved from shell to
shell. Was it magic? Even moving slowly the man's hands danced. But, Odysseus
realized, there was a pattern to it. His right hand moved left, left, right,
left, right, in a figure eight. His left hand moved opposite. That meant the
stone had to be, "Under the left one."

It was.

The stranger smiled and said, "Again."

This time Odysseus said, "The one in the middle." He was right. "I see the
trick, now," Odysseus said.

"Good eye. Like cyclops."

Platon, one of the fishermen, spoke up, "Me, too."

"Loaf of bread says don't."

"I'll eat it for supper with that skin of wine over there," Platon said, and
everyone laughed.

They laughed again when there was nothing under Platon's shell and even harder,
when Odysseus leaned forward, tapped the middle shell. Platon went to fetch his
skin of wine.

"Now I have loaf of bread, skin of wine-oh, and Mycenaean coppers." The stranger
fingered the pouch at his neck and held up 2 fingers. "Anyone else try?"

They did.

The stranger won, in addition to Odysseus's loaf and Platon's wine, a flask of
olive oil, a jar of balsam scented ointment, a length of rope, a good brown
woolen cloak, five more Mycenaean coppers, three silver coins off one of the
Cretan sailors, and a basket of crabs.

Those times he didn't win, everyone looked to Odysseus and Odysseus would choose
a shell. The white stone would be under the shell Odysseus chose. He watched the
stranger's eyes dancing over the crowd, as his hands danced over the board and 
remembered his father saying with strangers keep one hand on your purse and the
other on your balls. The stranger caught him looking and winked, as though they
shared a secret. A fizzing sensation started at the base of Odysseus's spine. It
raced down the backs of his thighs, making him shiver harder than thinking of
Eirene ever did. The man had eyes like the Aegean the morning after a storm. A
god could have eyes like that. And a god might sit naked on a rock, playing with
men and shells.

Eventually, the wives came clucking to drag their husbands home to a spoiled
dinner and, when everyone was gone, one of the Cretans came down the gangplank.
From the enameled copper bands on his arms, he had to be the captain of the
freighter. Odysseus had seen him pausing by the ship's rail from time to time
shaking his head and he was still wagging his it, as he said, "I'd keep you, but
you'd steal my ship out from under me."

He held out his hand and the stranger handed him two of the silver coins. When
he'd gone, Odysseus said, "What did you give him the money him for?"

"Saving my life." The stranger opened his pouch and, one by one, put the white
stone, the shells and the other coins inside it. Then let his glance rest on
Odysseus. "He plucked me out of the water, yesterday. It was kind of him, but he
thought he'd sell me in the slave market at Corinth, and that would have been an
inconvenience. So, I made a bet with him that on the first island we came to I
could turn three empty shells into the cost of my passage. He said he'd take
half if I could do it before dinner and save him the cost of having to feed me
again."

"How did you do it?" Odysseus said.

"You saw."

"The trick with the shells," Odysseus said.

Neither of them remarked that his Greek was now perfect.

"I thought you figured that out."

"I thought, too. At first. But it didn't matter which shell I picked, did it?"

"You see more than most, Prince Odysseus. Good attribute in a king."

"And how do you know who I am."

"Captain Neros told me that the king of Ithaca has a son. That's an old kilt
you're wearing but there's still a scrap of purple border on it."  The man
stood, brushed sand from his thighs and began piling his bundle and the other
things he'd won on top of the basket of crabs. "I don't care to give him a
chance to change his mind, so I'll leave you now."

"I'll tell them you cheated!" He hadn't meant to say it. It came blurting out.

"No, you won't." The stranger's sudden smile sent the tingle fizzling down
Odysseus's legs again. "You'd never know how I did it, then, and you want to
know that more than anything."

It was true. "Where are you going?"

"Wherever I can find some wood to make a fire and cook these."

"I know a place with wood and water."

"Show me then and I'll teach you the trick in return." He picked up his basket.
"I expect it's not what you're used to but I'd be happy to share. I'm called
Methos, by the way."

***

The old pig farmer's hut had fallen down long ago, but there were stunted nut
trees and a spring of clear water. Methos had shown him how to wrap the crabs in
seaweed and roast them on hot stones. Only the shells were left by the time The
Hunter had begun pursuing The Bear.

For a while they sat listening to the waves off the point and passing the
wineskin back and forth. Methos sorted the thing the things he'd won, daubing
the balsam ointment on his sunburned shoulders and forehead. Odysseus found
himself telling about the accident, how the boar that had seemed to be running
away had suddenly swerved and attacked. He had stood his ground. His spear had
taken it through the shoulder to the heart. But one of its tusks had ripped his
leg open. "I was supposed to go to the court at Mycenae with my father. It would
have my first visit. Now, I have to wait another year...They made me stay with
the women!"

"Horrible," Methos agreed, "but chances are the court at Mycenae will still be
there next year."

"Ithaca is a small island. If I'm to be king and protect her, I'll need to make
alliances with the other princes." He pulled his leg up and scowled at the torn
flesh. Someday the wound might be an insignificant white line; tonight it was
still puckered and red. "This makes me look weak..."

"No," Methos interrupted. "It doesn't. In the same situation, ninety-nine men in
a hundred would have shit themselves and run. You don't know that because you
didn't. Trust me, your father will have been boasting about it for days."

Odysseus stared at him. "Truly?"

"Yes. You kept the tusks? Make a war helmet out of them. Wear it as a trophy."

Odysseus folded his arms around his knees and imagined himself in an ivory
helmet.

"Believe me; no one will ever doubt your courage."

He realized that Methos had been smiling at him and blushed. "You're a soldier."

"No. Just been around." Methos had produced a small knife with a curious black
blade from his bundle and was slicing up his woolen cloak.

"What are you making?"

"Something to cover up my chapped ass. I'm not inclined to flash it all over the
Middle Sea."

Odysseus watched him unravel a long thread and pull a thin roll of linen from
inside the sheath of his knife. There were two bone needles stuck through the
fabric. He threaded one of them and began piecing the edges of his cloth
together. "You're a sailor!" He'd seen sailors sew and mend.

Methos snorted. "Not if I can help it."

"But a man doesn't turn his hand woman's work," Odysseus objected.

"Why not?"

"All women do is spin, weave and gossip."

"A good thing, too, or we'd all go naked. Where I'm from the winters are long
and dark. Anyone, man or woman might weave a belt or stitch on something just to
make it beautiful. It passes the time."

Methos worked quickly. The kilt took shape.

Odysseus couldn't imagine a Greek doing that, even if he had no woman or slave
to do it for him, yet Methos didn't appear to think he was shamed and Odysseus
wondered, "What land are you from?"

"A land that lies west of the Thessalian plain, beyond the country of the
Isseldonians, all the way at the foot of the Copper Mountains."

There was nothing west of Thessaly on the maps in his father's library. "Can you
get there by ship?"

"If the ship sails on grass. It's a vast plain. You Greeks say it's home to the
north wind."

"But, the Cretan pulled you out of the water."

"Because I was on a ship that broke up in a storm."

"How did you survive?"

"Clung to a piece of the hull. I was the best barnacle you ever saw until Neros
came along and decided there might be some profit in my pickled hide."

Odysseus counted the days since the last storm on the fingers of both hands.
"But, that was more than..."

"You ask a lot of questions," Methos said.

Odysseus watched him rip a fringe where the fabric would cross in front and
remembered how he'd been fascinated by the looms in his mother's work room. The
cloth had seemed to grow by magic. There had been mystery there before he'd
grown too big to be admitted. "A king," he said, "doesn't turn his hand woman's
work."

"But a king should. Think! If you only learn what men know, you'll only be able
to rule men but if you learn what women know, you'll be able to rule anyone."

"What do women know?"

Methos's smile flashed. "They know how to survive."

It was getting colder. The wind teased Odysseus's nipples. He edged nearer the
other man's warmth.

The fire lit the blade of Methos's nose. It gleamed on his shoulders and hands
and the shanks of his legs. But the well of his thighs was all shadow and
Odysseus couldn't make out the round shapes nestling there in the dark curls. He
wondered how they'd feel in his hands. His fingers, his lips and the tips of his
nipples all began to tingle and his cock was pressing against his loincloth.
"You promised," he said, although, his tongue felt thick and slow, "to teach me
the trick with the shells."

Methos laughed, "So I did."

He put aside his nearly assembled garment and smoothed the ground in front of
him with his hand. From his pouch he shook the shells and white stone. "Find a
small stone, like this one. A dried pea will work." He set it on the ground and
passed his hand over it. Gone. It reappeared at the next pass. Then it was gone
again. Methos turned his hand over and there it was, caught between his palm and
thumb. You couldn't see it from the back.  "Watch."

Methos selected a shell and set it down. When he picked it up again, it seemed
the stone had been underneath it all along. He covered it, included the other
two shells, moving them in the quick hopping pattern, and, when he turned them
over, each in turn, the stone was under none of them. It rested in his turned up
palm. "Scoop up the stone and put it down with your thumb. Pick up the shells
with your fingers. Your hand moves more quickly than the eye can follow and,
even when you tell people to watch the shells, no one will see what you're
doing."

"That's it?"

Methos reached out and flicked his ear. "That and practice."

The firelight gave Methos two faces. One of them was as bright as the silver
coin between his fingers. With a twist of his fingers, the coin was gone.

"Truly?" Odysseus said.

"Yes."

"Like this?" he said.

Then Methos was pushing him down and the world became the heat of the mouth
covering his and the hand feeling beneath his kilt. He pressed into it, moaning,
as his loincloth was pulled it free. The rough linen dragging across his urgent
flesh was too much. Seed poured out of him, leaving his body sprawled
helplessly. He lay there as the hot splashes of wetness on his belly turned cold
and his belt was undone and his kilt was spread. His legs were rearranged. A
weight pressed him into the earth, hardness thrusting between his thighs,
pumping; the force drove Odysseus to a new release. Dimly, he heard Methos cry.
It was a guttural, pain filled sound.

He tried to move but he was pinned by the weight of the body on top of him and
it was a struggle to breathe. Seed was seeping between the cheeks of his ass. It
felt...slippery. And the sweat dripping into his eys stung. He pushed. He might
have been pushing Raven's Rock and, until that moment, he hadn't been
frightened. But what had happened had not been the play of boys or the high
prideful excitement of his time with Eirene.

He yelled.

And then he was up, straddling Methos's hips, gasping breath as Methos arched
and settled, panting, beneath him. "Yes, like that." Methos was laughing. "Just
like that." His hands caressed Odysseus's hips, squeezing his ass.

All fear gone. Odysseus laughed, too, and Methos pulled his head down, filling
his mouth, his tongue, pumping in and out. He could feel Methos's cock butting
him and he scootched backward, rubbing his ass against it. At last, when Methos
let him speak, he said, "Teach me what it is women know."

"The flask," Methos panted. "Reach the flask." And Odysseus handed him the
little leather flask of oil from the top of the pile.

The smell was earthy and pungent as Methos dripped it onto his hands and slid
them over Odysseus' thighs, urging him up, up. Obediently, Odysseus went to his
knees. Heat cradled his sac, a greasy finger slipped inside him, in and out,
deeper until it touched a place that made him spill his seed again. His cock
wilted and he felt himself contracting around the finger but it kept working
him. He let out a whimper. It was gone and something bigger and blunter probed
for right of entry. "Push down." It stretched and filled him. And it hurt but
Methos's hands gentled and soothed until it was rooted deep. Then he said,
"Squeeze."

Odysseus squeezed and felt Methos's groan in his gut. He squeezed again. It was
better. Much better. Methos stayed still, until his was slick with sweat under
Odysseus's thighs, until Odysseus's cock perked up and bobbed, obliging him to
move. But slowly, slowly. Methos was in total control. His hands set the measure
and brought Odysseus to a high place. This time it was like a golden filament
was being drawn out through him.

Methos's body was trembling beneath him but the only sound he made as he came
was the same low guttural cry as before, then stillness. Pulling apart was
strange. Methos's cock slipped out of him with a gush of seed, wiped up with a
scrap from the wool as they snuggled together.

"Do god's cry?" He was sure there had been tears pooled in Methos's eyes.

"No more questions." Methos gave a jaw cracking yawn. "Sleep. Or else tell me
what it is that you talk about with the woman you meet out here."

Odysseus started. "How-?"

A hand stroked his hair. "You know this place too well."

"We didn't talk."

He felt Methos's chuckle. "Not even after you've done it two or three times?"

"Five times. Why?"

"It's what lovers do. After they've done it five times. You could hold her in
your arms and tell her the kind of king you'd like to be some day."

"She didn't stay. She said the other women would guess where she was." Odysseus
burrowed his head into Methos's shoulder. "Besides, she made me swear not to
tell."

"She's right. Then, I'll tell you the story...she's what? Twenty-five.married
six, seven years..." Odysseus nodded, drowsily; the boats had been decorated
with flowers. "...no son to help him when he gets old...no daughter to make her
laugh..." Methos's voice slowly unfolded the tale and his hand stroked
Odysseus's head. "But she might have told you how it feels to want a child so
badly that she took a chance with a long-legged colt...the gold just appearing
on his chin..."

He woke when the moon was up, shining so brightly the night sky had turned from
black to blue.

Methos was standing by the ashes of the fire, dressed in the kilt he'd made.

Odysseus watched him pull a harness, the contents of that rag wrapped bundle,
over his shoulder and buckle it at the waist. A sword, longer than any Odysseus
had ever seen, hung across his back. A god might carry a sword like that.

"That island to the east, what is it called?"

"Palliki."

Odysseus bounced to his feet. "You're leaving!"

"Yes. If there's a boat gone missing tomorrow, search for it on Palliki."

He had to ask, "Are you Hermes?"

Methos pulled him into his arms. "Just a man," he said and kissed Odysseus.
Under the balsam, was the smell of salt and sex and sweat and wool. "Don't go
looking for the gods; they'll find you." Then he was gone into the morning.

He could have been a god, anyway, Odysseus thought, sitting naked on a rock,
playing with men and shells.



The End
06/11/06

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism.  Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round
mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed.  No, really. Gen,
het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or
pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose.  Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we
are not here to workshop writers.  There are other lists for
that.  Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if
the author knows about the critique or not, and although we
certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is
not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources.
Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a
cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing
are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer
Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of
Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time
in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and
critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical
discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is
also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to
lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite
it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not
as hard-and-fast rules.  The list moderators *are* rewriting it
for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document:
"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you
permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider
the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as
both invitation and permission to critique; no specific
permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming.  Please cut out irrelevant things from your
responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire
previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to
say.  This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or
who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion.  This is a big one.  Many lists ban it;
CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write
criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of
a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all.  It's not.
Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or
*should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine.  "I don't
think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to
tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really
wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can
*ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from
this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long
as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as
a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls.  Historically, we have a problem
with these.  (They are especially fond of emerging from the
woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town
or otherwise unable to access their computers.)  Don't respond
to them.  If you respond and then realize they're a troll or
sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus.  Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks.  If you do this too much,
and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you
will be warned and put on moderated status first should this
issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious
types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to
particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a
sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have
made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if
they are a puppeteer.  (You should be aware that such questions
often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't"
counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong
fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or
Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is
NOT fine.  Don't do it.

9. Threats.  These can get you banned from the list
immediately.  No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't
want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free &
raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat
of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b)
only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen
says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm
sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will
be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might
not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT
POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats
to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to
know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of
your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport
security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats
seriously.

10. Flamewars.  Don't participate.  They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of
writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters
should be aware that these are contentious issues and some
people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds
that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted.  The list moderators
prefer other forms of criticism.  Out and out MiSTS (fiction
mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are
fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make
sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine
and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled)
can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to
do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or
put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing
[Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in
spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.


Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the
person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person
may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that
the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a
longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but
violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not
always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it
such
2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-
list commentary from us
3. they are participating in a flamewar
4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not
warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what
warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN
post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying
that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on
either their posts or their fiction
2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to
disguise an insult.
3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit
of making, especially if they direct such attack against a
particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an
ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a
note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to
do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and
keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly
volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to
spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are
just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like
their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their
frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion.  Anything
that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated.  Repeated
and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated.
Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins
lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another
account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.  Making
death threats on-list will get you banned.  Engaging in
sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned.
Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned.
If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save
ourselves the headache of dealing with you.